Evidence of meeting #52 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was animals.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
Thank you, Mr. Anderson.
Thank you, Mr. Panday.
Mr. Breton, you have six minutes.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Gentlemen, thank you for joining us today to discuss this matter.
This is a new issue for me. I am learning a tremendous amount about it today. Clearly, India is a partner or, at the very least, an extremely important buyer of legumes we produce in Canada.
How many jobs are related to legumes in Canada? Do you know? A bit earlier, exports and amounts of money were discussed. However, do you know how many jobs are involved?
11:55 a.m.
Director General, Market Access Secretariat, Market and Industry Services Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
I'm sorry, it's not an area that I can speak to with any authority.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
That was a basic question, but it's not the main objective of my questions.
Why has Canada been subject to exemptions since 2004? The exemptions were renewed every six months, but why were we entitled to them in the first place?
Mr. Anderson, do you want to answer?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
I think we had some successful negotiations that included a realistic view of Canada's ability to actually meet the requirement. To be able to fumigate at origin and to be effective in treating and managing the risk for the pests that they wanted treated was not an option for Canada at that point.
We needed to create some flexibility for the fumigation to be offshore, or not at origin, in order for us to effectively meet the requirements for certification. For the CFIA, a competent authority, to be able to issue a phytosanitary certificate we would need to know that the fumigation was effectively done. It had to be done offshore because of the reasons I gave earlier with respect to the ineffectiveness of methyl bromide in our climate.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
That is what you said about the weather and the temperature.
According to my understanding, the exemptions were renewed every six months, and they were only valid in the short term, so that the industry was always on its toes, month after month. The exemptions were renewed every six months, and so much the better, as that was excellent news. However, the industry must have been constantly nervous since 2004. We have been obtaining those exemptions for 13 years. Yet we now find ourselves in a situation where India no longer wants to grant exemptions. What are the main reasons behind that refusal?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
I can't say exactly what India's motivation was for pulling exemptions, but they were looking at their laws and starting to strengthen their enforcement of those laws. It was an overall view that they no longer wanted to present exemptions to anyone. It's not just to Canada that they're presenting this.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
What you are saying is that the decision affects all the countries that export to India.
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Yes, it's not just to Canada. That's correct.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
Is Canada talking to the other countries that no longer have exemptions to try to find alternative solutions?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
We look at alternatives, but again we're all in different situations given the amount of trade that's involved with respect to pulses going to India, as well as the opportunities and flexibility afforded to us because of our specific climate and situations, and the systems that we use for exporting grain.
There are several areas, from the pathway from production to grain elevators, and our weather that we can show mitigate the risks. Not all countries may be afforded the same possibility to provide the evidence that we do.
Noon
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
When you talk about alternatives, do you mean products to replace methyl bromide, MBR, which you mentioned?
Noon
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
It's an alternative approach to mitigating the risk of the pests of concern to India. We are suggesting that we would not require any fumigation of pulse shipments because of the system we have of production, storage, and handling of grain, and because the pests that we have in Canada are not pests of concern to India. This provides enough evidence to show that fumigation is not required for them not to have concerns about pests entering India through Canadian exports.
Our argument is that fumigation is not needed to meet their needs. Our proposal is basically to explain our entire system and why there isn't a need for fumigation at all. Going forward, if the proposal is agreed to, we would look for no need for any further fumigation of exports to India.
Noon
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
That all seems very logical to me, and you use scientific data to prove things to that country, which needs our legumes.
You are experts and you are surrounded by other experts. Why doesn't India accept your arguments? I assume that this is not the first time you have tried to show them this. Why is it taking that country so long to accept it? India is a trade partner that is far from Canada, and this is not clear. Why would it now accept what it would not accept six months ago?
Noon
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
I would say that the proposal related to systems has gained traction over the last couple of years. In previous years, from 2004 to about 2015, there was a different context and environment with respect to the pests that were thought to be present in pulse shipments going to India. Technological advances have helped us to identify that what we thought was a potential pest we were detecting in earlier shipments of pulses was in fact not a pest of concern to India. They agreed to that in 2015, which has helped us to start the discussion to work on a systems approach.
Noon
Liberal
Noon
NDP
Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I thank the witnesses before the committee today.
What kinds of pests is India concerned about? Is it the stem and bulb pest that they're concerned about?
Noon
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
The stem and bulb nematode was their biggest concern earlier, but they are worried about pests that are found in storage, as well as weed seeds.
Noon
NDP
Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
When tests have been done, have we ever tested positive for stem and bulb pests or any others? I'd like to know.
Noon
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
No, but in the past, there wasn't enough specificity in the testing to differentiate what type of nematode it was. The classification of nematodes is complex. There are many different species. Some of them are harmful and some are benign, and earlier on, before 2015, before the technology and the use of genetics allowed us to differentiate them, we didn't have the knowledge to be able to definitively say what was not the stem and bulb nematode. In 2015, that technology allowed us to make that case.
Noon
NDP
Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Okay.
I think we're all very hopeful that a long-term solution will be possible—hopefully within the three months—but are there any other kinds of options aside from the methyl bromide? I know that Canada and India have signed the Montreal protocol, and we're all trying to phase out the use of these pesticides. Are there any other options? I read somewhere that if you soak pulses in water at a temperature of 110 to 115 degrees Fahrenheit within formalin for an hour, it can kill certain things. Is that correct?
Noon
Executive Director, Plant Health and Biosecurity Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
I don't have an answer. I'm not an expert in that area of evidence. What I'm saying today is that the current systems we have in place, and our abilities to sample, detect and test, are sufficient to be able to provide assurances to India that we're meeting their requirements with respect to pests of concern to them for pulse shipments.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Okay.
Canada does export a lot, and these exports of pulses to India have really important economic impacts. What other countries export pulses to India apart from Canada?