Agriculture Committee on April 29th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

That's pretty much it. I think you're pretty close to it.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

It was kind of on and off. We'll end it here.

Go ahead, Monsieur Perron.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Before we begin, I want to make sure that Ms. Turcotte's Internet connection was tested prior to the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

I think so.

Ms. Turcotte, could you close all the other applications that you have running? Often, this causes—

[Isabelle Turcotte]

Yes, we were no longer in contact. I'm sorry.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

That's fine. I just wanted to make sure. It's a health and safety issue for our interpreters.

I know that I often compliment the interpreters, but this time they pulled off a major feat.

We can continue, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Go ahead, Mr. Perron.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I'll start my two and a half minutes by turning again to Mr. Charlebois.

Mr. Charlebois, you said a few things earlier that I found intriguing. You said that you didn't really have an issue with the carbon tax being set at $50, but that if it rose to $170, you would have one. Are you implying that there could have been a middle ground to maintain the signal requested by the other two witnesses today and that there could be a transition? I'd like you to briefly comment on this.

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

Thank you. That's a good question, Mr. Perron.

In my view, a carbon tax of $50 per tonne is still familiar territory. Case studies were conducted before the determination of this amount. However, tripling the amount in Canada takes us into unknown territory. It's quite a significant change.

Since Prime Minister Trudeau announced this increase in December, I've asked various people in Ottawa many questions. I haven't received an answer or an assessment. Let's go back to the affordability of food. In my opinion, that's the starting point. What would be the consequences up front in terms of distribution, processing and production? We don't know the impact of this increase, which is quite significant.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

You're maintaining your position that passing Bill C-206 is a good idea. Are you also saying that the parts of the country not covered by the bill, such as Quebec, should at some point do the same thing and use more incentives up front?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

In my opinion, yes. As I explained at the start of the meeting, I find that the producers' work isn't properly appreciated. Many changes have affected production. However, I think that we should look at the bigger picture. Instead of thinking about penalties, maybe we should also acknowledge the farmers' positive contribution to protecting the environment.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Are you aware of the possibility of using a certain amount of biogas to heat buildings and dry grain at a potentially acceptable rate that wouldn't require any facility changes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Mr. Perron, that's all the time that we have, unfortunately.

It's now Mr. MacGregor's turn.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Green, maybe I'll turn to you again.

In talking about these innovative technologies that may exist, I think that, so far, it has become clear that the combustion of some sort of fuel is needed to reach the efficiency that is required for these grain dryers, whether it's crop residue or propane.

I'm just wondering, does the David Suzuki Foundation have an opinion on helping farmers to collect biogas—methane—from the composting of manure and so on, collecting that into tanks and then using it as a fuel to power these dryers? I guess you could call it a carbon-neutral fuel, because it is a carbon source that is derived from something that was terrestrial and not a fossil fuel. Is that something that could be an interim innovative measure to be used in circumstances like these?

[Tom L. Green]

If we preserve the price on emissions, then we will see more and more solutions deployed.

I would just like to say one thing, which is that I don't think combustion is the only way to go. Heat pumps have been used to heat homes, to heat industry and in industrial processes. Heat pumps are being deployed at a rapid scale in a whole bunch of different processes. The great thing about a heat pump is that whatever electricity you put in, you actually get about three times as much for the process you're using, and because when you're doing grain drying I presume most of it is not done when it's -40°C out, you actually get a really good energy return.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Is it not preferable to use methane from composting manure and combust that, so it's CO2, rather than to have it as methane, which is a far worse greenhouse gas?

[Tom L. Green]

We definitely don't want to release methane into the atmosphere, but in a proper composting process, you could make it aerobic as opposed to anaerobic so that you're not producing methane.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That is true, yes.

I think I only have a few seconds left, so thank you for your testimony.

[Tom L. Green]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

That concludes our panel for the first hour.

I really want to thank Mr. Charlebois for being here with us today. Also, from the David Suzuki Foundation, Mr. Green, thank you so much for your contribution. From the Pembina Institute, Madame Turcotte, again, thanks for being here.

We shall suspend to bring in the other panel—

Mr. Perron, you have the floor.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I have a quick technical question, Mr. Chair. You can say no if applicable. If we ask a question and we don't have time to get the answer, can we ask to obtain the response in writing?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Absolutely. We can inform the—

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Charlebois, I would like to receive an answer to my last question about the possibility of including biogas, if applicable, of course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

The question has been asked. Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Now we'll suspend, and we'll be back ASAP with the other panel.

Again, thank you.

We'll see you shortly.