Evidence of meeting #31 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was biosecurity.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Could you explain how it works?
Why does the bill focus on animal safety and not on the Criminal Code or criminal penalties? We are talking about trespassing on private property, are we not? Shouldn't the bill reflect that?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
Thank you for the question, Mr. Perron.
You're right. We could have gone the route of the Criminal Code, but we felt we needed a national strategy on this, a national vision.
The trespassing laws are a provincial jurisdiction. There are some provinces that have followed through on strengthening their trespassing and mischief laws around this issue specifically: Alberta and Ontario would be the two. Saskatchewan is going through the process, but it hasn't been enacted yet. Unfortunately, when we were doing work on this, we saw that the vast majority of provinces don't have anything like this in line yet.
We thought that the most efficient way of addressing this was through the Health of Animals Act, focused on the biosecurity issue. Hopefully this will be a learning opportunity for those activist groups or animal welfare groups to have a better understanding that there are some consequences and there is a national standard, or a national level of consequences, let's say, when it comes to protecting biosecurity on farms.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you.
Something else concerns me. I'd like to know your view on the proof requirement in relation to the incident.
Here's an example. Protesters show up on a farm, and livestock subsequently become sick. There was a highly publicized case involving a large hog farm in Quebec. The farm family incurred significant losses because animals fell ill. The protesters reportedly put water in the fuel tanks, causing damage. However, no one was able to prove that the two incidents were related.
Aren't we going to end up with the same problem if the legislation is enforced in a more systematic way?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
I think what the law does—to Mr. Perron's question—is to put some pretty serious consequences in the act.
To go quickly back to your previous question, the issue with some of the provincial rules is that the penalties are really insignificant, anywhere from a $200 fine, up to the max that I've seen, which is $5,000. We're substantially higher than that.
The second part to Mr. Perron's question is that usually these activists aren't doing this in the dead of night to try to sneak in and sneak out. They want attention. They want to make sure that what they're doing is getting as many eyeballs as possible. That's one of the reasons they targeted Jumbo farm in my riding, which is right on Highway 2—a very prominent farm location. They were just lucky that they had a very understanding farm family who didn't overreact.
I think the essence of your question is that we can never assure that charges are laid or a conviction is found. That process is up to the investigators. I think the most important thing with this legislation and what we're proposing is very significant fines that will hopefully act as a deterrent, rather than the insignificant fines that are rarely laid at the provincial level.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
You'll have a chance to pick up where you left off, Mr. Perron.
Thank you.
We go to Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Barlow, for coming here.
As a preliminary question, to your knowledge, has there ever been a documented case of protestors bringing in a disease or spreading it to farms?
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
Through the chair, yes. As Mr. Perron just mentioned, there was one recently in Saint-Hyacinthe, Quebec, where some protestors came on a hog farm, and now that hog farm is infested with rotavirus, something they haven't seen in more than 40 years. We've now seen that coronavirus can be passed from person to mink. There have been mink farms whose herds have been euthanized.
To your question, Mr. MacGregor, it only takes one. We are still recovering from bovine spongiform encephalopathy in our cattle industry. There was one case on one ranch in Alberta. We still have not recovered from that incident, and that was more than 20 years ago. We lost more than 3,000 ranches in Canada as a result of that one case of BSE. Only this past summer did Canada apply for negligible risk status on BSE. That cost this industry tens of billions of dollars in lost cattle but also lost export markets. We are still just getting back into South Korea and Japan.
There have been cases where this has been identified as an issue, but, I mean, it only takes one. Imagine the impact on our pork industry if we had a case of African swine fever. It would devastate this industry in Canada, as we've seen in nations like China. They've had to euthanize more than one million animals.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
I visited several farms in my day. I referenced them in my speech at second reading. Certainly we know, from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, that there are many novel diseases and pests coming across our borders every year.
What I'm trying to dig down to is that federal criminal law power can exist in several forms: to protect public health, to protect autonomy, to protect privacy, and so on.
In in your opening statement, you were talking about the reasoning behind this bill, and I think we're all very sensitive to that. We did the mental health study, as you referenced. In the last Parliament, we also almost concluded a study on public perceptions of agriculture. It seems to me that, in regard to the farmers who were directly impacted in your specific riding case, their first reaction wasn't so much the disease potential to their flock. It was, really, “What are 30 strangers doing on my property, and why do they think they have the right to be here?”
I just want to dig down a bit more. Do you think the Criminal Code, especially its trespass provisions, might also have been a suitable alternative to act as a deterrent in cases like this, if we really are talking about, ultimately, trying to protect the private property of farmers and their right to earn a living in peace?
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
As you mentioned in your speech during the second reading debate, your area has been devastated by avian flu. You're a chicken farmer yourself, so you know how devastating that can be.
There is a mental health aspect to our farm families, and the impact on them is profound. We cannot underestimate that. I don't think we can put a price tag on that, to be honest with you.
As I said, farmers and ranch families, as you know, face a lot of variables each and every day, a lot of things that are out of their control: commodity prices, weather, and oftentimes transport, all those types of things. I think there are a couple—
4 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
Mr. Barlow, I think we're getting a poor connection, and now the interpreters are not able to.... Apparently, it's weak Internet. I don't know if there's anything you can do. Maybe I'll let the technicians work with you there to see if they can correct that.
4 p.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I am getting a bit of fuzzy audio as well. Maybe if I just logged out and logged back in, that be a good first step.
4 p.m.
The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Alexie Labelle
We're checking if it's just a matter of connection.
Yes, it seems to be just that.
4 p.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
You can't blame rural Alberta Internet because I'm in Ottawa.
4 p.m.
Liberal
4 p.m.
The Clerk
I'll tell you in just two seconds.
4 p.m.
The Clerk
Mr. Barlow, I don't know if you have other applications that are opened, but if you could close them, since Zoom is taking a lot of the energy, maybe it will be better.
4 p.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
How's that? I closed everything that I had. Does that help at all? It still looks a little bit—
4 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
It seems better, I think.
Okay. We had paused on time.
I don't know if you recall where you were in your reply, Mr. Barlow, or if you need Mr....
4 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
I'll maybe just get my last question in, because I have about a minute and a half left, I think.
4 p.m.
Liberal