Agriculture Committee on May 2nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Medeiros.

Colleagues, I'm going to try to do two panels. We have options to extend. I know that some of you have to leave at one o'clock. We need at least four people to stick around if we want to still hold court, ask questions and get evidence. Otherwise, if you want to move a UC motion, we could keep whoever wants to stay, and basically supersede the standing order, if you so choose.

Let's start with the two panels and see where we go. If you want, four of us can stick around and continue to ask questions a bit beyond one o'clock for those who can't stay.

It's over to you, Ms. Rood, for six minutes.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being with us today.

We've heard some very interesting testimony today that's actually alarming. Something I've been asking a lot of witnesses about is the P2 plastics ban that the NDP-Liberal government has tried to implement. I heard from the organics folks that you grow 25% of your organics—I believe that was the figure you gave today—in fruits and vegetables. Also, the mushroom growers are exporting 40% of the mushrooms grown in Canada.

Perhaps I'll start with the mushroom growers. How will the P2 plastics ban affect mushroom growers? We know that mushrooms come in plastic packaging right now, and you're exporting to other countries. Could you give us an idea of how that might affect you?

[Mike Medeiros]

Well, we are using recycled PET already, which was allowed after that ban. We're also looking at cardboard as a substitute. We are doing trials right now to utilize cardboard for our tills. Years ago, actually, all our packaging was cardboard. When consumers asked for smaller packaging, that's when we transitioned to the recyclable PET.

As I said, we are looking at trying to implement cardboard. We are doing tests for that, but right now, with margins the way they are, being sort of non-existent in our industry at the moment, it's really tough to implement these extra costs on cardboard. The retailers do not want to pay more for mushrooms, and neither do the consumers. The price of mushrooms in the stores is all that consumers want to pay.

At the moment, we've noticed consumption going down about 10% to 15%. We don't want prices to increase. We're absorbing the food inflation at the moment, but we are working on changing to cardboard.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

You mentioned that consumption is already down. We've heard from a Deloitte report that banning plastics right now could increase health care costs by over a billion dollars per year because of lower fresh produce consumption.

I'm wondering if the organic association has any comment on that and what you're doing already to mitigate it. Is there an impact on you with this ban right now? Were you consulted?

[Tia Loftsgard]

It hasn't been a major point of discussion within the organic sector so far, but the Sustainable Food Trade Association formed to find packaging solutions before the ban ever existed, because it is of interest that we ensure sustainability throughout all organic products.

Gillian, did you want to speak to the plastic ban as well?

[Gillian Flies]

I can only speak from the point of view of our farm. We use reusable returnable packaging on our farm, and we also use recyclable plastic bags when we need them for salad, out of Quebec. We have tried to work with retailers as well on salad. It's really hard to get anything but a clear plastic clamshell on the shelf for salad. We use EcoStar 100% recycled packaging made with coke bottles, and we're doing our best.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Currie, this week, we heard a scathing report from the Auditor General saying that the government did not consult with stakeholders prior to establishing the fertilizer emissions reduction target. I'm just curious. Was your organization consulted prior to the government establishing the P2 plastics ban on fresh produce? Did the CFA have any input into what was published in the planning notice, or were you only afforded the 30-day window for consultation after the fact?

[Keith Currie]

We didn't get a lot of heads-up on that announcement. Certainly, we've been working very closely with the CPMA on this issue. We're trying to figure out the problem we're trying to solve here, because the amount of plastic we're talking about is so small, yet the impact is so huge. That means there's going to be a lot of waste product. Potentially, there aren't going to be a lot of imports coming in, because the importers won't adhere to the plastic regulation.

Really, all we ask for in any issue is to have a conversation to see what the impact on the ground is going to be so we can go forward collectively and make the right decision.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

To the mushroom growers, you mentioned that you paid $16,000 per month in carbon tax and that the mushroom farming industry pays $7.2 million. We've heard the NDP-Liberal government claim that you get more back in rebates than you spend. I'm just wondering if that's your experience. Have you heard from anyone who's gotten more back, or do you believe they're spreading a false narrative by making this claim?

[Mike Medeiros]

I know from my farm and other farms I've talked to that we don't get any carbon tax back whatsoever. We basically keep paying it and don't see anything for it. We're not getting any credit for the work we're already doing in carbon sequestration, so it's a little frustrating on that point.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Currie, have you heard of anybody getting more money back than what they're paying for carbon tax?

[Keith Currie]

No, not at this point. We have to understand that agriculture producers are large users of all products, all inputs, including energy. Especially when we live in a northern climate where we require a lot of heat, large volumes of propane and natural gas in particular are used. I don't think the government has any intention of rebating the amount of carbon tax that we're paying, much as what Mr. Medeiros just alluded to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We're going to leave it at that. Thank you so much.

Mr. Louis, you have up to six minutes.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses here in person and online. We have a bunch of experts here, and I really appreciate your time.

I would like to focus on Ms. Loftsgard from the Canada Organic Trade Association.

In my riding of Kitchener—Conestoga, I have 49 organic farms and businesses, and I'm aware of the impact on our community of promoting soil health and biodiversity, helping with risks for water pollution and minimizing chemical runoff. The benefits are there. At the same time, we're hearing from all of our witnesses about floods, droughts, extreme weather, the climate crisis and terms that we didn't hear years ago: the heat dome, polar vortex and atmospheric rivers.

All these losses are due to climate change, and I believe you or someone else mentioned that it's a big source of concern and stress for farmers. Because profit margins are so slim, farmers are feeling pressure to use every inch of land that they can grow on. I've heard about farmers ripping up fencerows and drying out wetlands to use for planting or moving bushlots, but as you know, those are measures that can actually help with sustainability and resilience against severe weather.

What incentives would you like to see to help reward farmers in preserving those beneficial lands for fencerows, wetlands and bushlots?

[Tia Loftsgard]

It is time, I think, to invest in things proactively and make sure we are not working on remediation but rather mitigation. This is the time for investment.

We saw the U.S. government invest over $300 million. I've had many discussions with the USDA's national organic program. I asked, “Why are you doing that?” They said it was because it costs them less than paying out to deal with emergencies, floods and insurance programs.

What the organic actors are showcasing is that there is a solution out there that allows us to start working towards better soil health and more of the activities that provide benefits to the climate. Really, I think it's an investment time, and a time to look at a long-term solution.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I'd like to think we can do both at the same time.

[Tia Loftsgard]

Absolutely.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

We can work on resilience and sustainability.

Is there a way of quantifying the cost of climate inaction? How can we quantify that? You're saying there's a cost to not doing anything. What could that cost our farmers when we're hearing about these disasters?

[Tia Loftsgard]

What we need to do is look at the payouts that have happened in BRM programs in the last couple of years. We need to look at agriculture with a true-cost accounting lens to really understand that small investments can have a good return on investment. We can start looking at and tracking what's happening in regard to the constant payouts going to farmers for them to mitigate the effects of climate change. Also, many farmers are changing over to organic right now anyhow because of the high cost of inputs and to make sure it's profitable for them to continue farming.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

That's encouraging to hear for a number of reasons that I mentioned off the top.

Are the people switching to organic now getting the same level of support? Can they get the same level of support as people who have already been doing organic practices for years? I've heard some organic farmers say they're not getting supports. There are new programs they don't qualify for because they've already been doing this. How can we recommend steps to reward people for beneficial practices they've already been doing?

[Tia Loftsgard]

I'll let Gillian respond to this one, but I will say that we are one of the administrators of the on-farm climate action fund. That is one of the programs that are discriminatory against organic farmers.

I'll let Gillian speak to it.

[Gillian Flies]

Yes, I'd like to speak about the OFCAF in particular.

The issue there is that, if you have already been implementing the practice—which you would be, as an organic farmer—you can't get paid to implement the practice. I think that's what you're talking about. We've been cover cropping for years at our own cost, but neighbours down the way, who are competitors, are getting those costs covered, which seems unfair.

What we're asking for is support for farmers around education, using farmers who are already doing this and supporting them to educate with on-farm education events and those types of things. However, on the grander scale, we need more organic farmers, so let's cover transition support for organic-curious farmers as they come across, because for a period of about three years it is very tough for them when they make the transition.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I don't think one should be at the expense of the other. I think if someone is willing to transition to organic farming, we need to support them. At the same time, what you're saying is that there are those who have already been doing that, and it would be encouraging to support them as well for taking those steps.

Maybe I can continue with you, Ms. Flies, with the minute I have left.

You mentioned that only about 3% of farms have organic certification. I believe you also said that the market is growing as far as consumers go. Is there room for selling more organic food to Canadians? Right now, where are people getting that from, and how can we address it?

[Gillian Flies]

Yes, there's—

[Tia Loftsgard]

Sure—