Agriculture Committee on May 30th, 2024

[Stefanie Beck]

We, too, were disappointed with the outcome of the Auditor General's report. The Auditor General was very specific in explaining that the department does not currently have a strategy. However, we have visions, we have action plans and we have all kinds of other documents, all fully science-based. That is how our programs are developed.

On the issue of measurement, as you know, globally there is trouble measuring specific emissions, especially from different parts of different countries. As a matter of fact, our scientists are in the process right now of testing various means of measurement. It is with the actuals and predictive models that we are making our predictions on what will happen.

I would just add one more thing. The OAG made its comments and statements about what our predictive models look like on the basis of one growing season's worth of data, which from our perspective is not sufficient.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I'll just end with this, and then I'll turn my time over to Mr. Lehoux.

The frustration is that the government is increasing the carbon tax every year, and it's going up again by 23% on April 1, with no data showing that it is actually having any impact. In fact, emissions are going up. You say you have all these documents, visions and action plans, but they don't mean anything if you're not doing something with them. This is about tangible measurements that farmers can hold and see in their hands. That's the message we're hearing.

I'll pass the rest of my time over to Mr. Lehoux.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Lehoux for one and a half minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deputy Minister, I come back to the question I asked earlier about temporary foreign workers. As deputy minister, have you heard from your colleagues about the possibility of a significant cut to the percentage of the workforce that can come from the TFWP, from 20% to 10%, for the processing sector? Is this confirmed or is it just an idea that's floating around?

[Stefanie Beck]

It's something I've only heard about as an industry concern. I haven't heard about it among my colleagues in the Government of Canada.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

I understand that you'll be leaving shortly, but I'd like you to pass on a suggestion to your successor to remedy this: Would it be possible to broaden the definition of primary agriculture to include processing?

You have a good grasp of the link between processing and production: If we reduce the capacity of our plants to process products, we will effectively reduce production. Can you suggest this change in definition to your successor?

[Stefanie Beck]

I'll be making this suggestion not only to my successor, but also to our colleagues across government, since it has far-reaching consequences not only for the industry as a whole, but eventually also for us as consumers.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

So that's a yes, Ms. Beck. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Unfortunately, your time is up.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Have a little indulgence, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

My job requires me to divide the time equally among all committee colleagues.

With that, I'll turn it over to myself, actually. We have six minutes on the Liberal side. I'm going to split it with Mr. MacDonald, so let me start my clock to be fair to all colleagues and make sure I'm not stretching it too far.

Ms. Beck, I want to start with you. It's a bit of a follow-up to the question Mr. MacDonald had.

I had the privilege of having New Zealand's special agricultural trade envoy, a farmer himself, in Parliament yesterday. One of the conversations we had.... Of course, we saw that the Jacinda Ardern government ran into challenges around some of the environmental policies and how they reconcile with farmers.... I think that's part of the challenge that we're facing. As the minister highlighted, a lot of work has to be done. Farmers are at the front line of that. They're doing really good work.

For trading commodities around the world, there's also a bit of a moment of reflection about how we reconcile asking domestic industries to be part of the solution while having that accounted for in the trading system so that countries choosing not to ask their domestic industry to be part of this global fight on climate change are not rewarded.

Can you enlighten this committee on some of the conversations you have? For example, some of the members of this committee were with Under-Secretary Bonnie from the United States, who said that the U.S. is grappling with this issue as well. Is there anything you might be able to share with this committee about how we balance environmental progress and how that might involve a trading system globally? We hear Europe talking about CBAM, although not for agriculture yet, and I think that's a preoccupation of this committee. Just share anything along those lines.

[Stefanie Beck]

Perhaps I'll share my time with Tom Rosser, who's out west right now meeting with stakeholders.

As the minister said, it's extremely important that we get this right. We know that our clients abroad, clients of our products, are prepared to pay a premium for a green-stamped, sustainable product, so it is worth the time and effort required to do this. We have work in play already with different colleagues around the world. Really, the part that is most important right now is getting the measurement right so that we can figure out how to get credit to the farmers and make sure they can take part in this global market.

I'll pass it over to Tom Rosser on screen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Go ahead, Tom.

[Tom Rosser, Assistant Deputy Minister, Market and Industry Services Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

It's an excellent question. As you alluded to in your preface, nothing has formally happened in the global agricultural space, but people are certainly talking about this. We have seen more focused discussions in sectors like steel and aluminum. We see a great deal of interest from agricultural associations. There was a ministerial meeting of the World Trade Organization in Abu Dhabi earlier this year that attracted several dozen observers and representatives from the agricultural sector.

We think there is an opportunity for Canada to make a contribution of thought leadership in how to strike a balance—how to promote the continuation of trade while recognizing environmental performance. It's an important question, one to which, as I said, there aren't answers. However, I think there is an opportunity for us to make a contribution to an active global debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I don't want to speak for the entire committee, but given the position I hold here, I think that's something we would highly encourage, particularly at the departmental level, from other comparable countries. That's because, as has been highlighted, our Canadian products generally, on a GHG standard, are some of the best in the world. When I think about major exporting commodities, we want to make sure that, whether it's a price on pollution or it's other types of environmental standards, Canada is seen and ranked high in that type of context if those types of tariff barriers or border adjustments, let's call them, are put into place.

The last question I have—and I know I'm leaking into your time, Mr. MacDonald, but you're a good friend; you'll let me go—is about the seasonal agricultural worker programs. I know this doesn't fall squarely, Ms. Beck, under the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food, but this is a highly important issue, particularly in the horticultural sector. You'll know that this committee has been studying the issues there.

Can you enlighten or share anything with this committee about the work that might be happening alongside ESDC? There is some talk of rationalizing, I'll say, the many different foreign worker programs out there. However, the one thing I want to reflect to you—and ultimately you can reflect to your new incoming deputy minister—is the importance of the seasonal agricultural worker program and having a level of certainty for employers with regard to whom they are responsible for as workers come into the country.

We had Minister Miller in my riding of King's—Hants recently, and we showed him the important work on housing, on the transportation elements and on food and groceries. As to employers, I think those that are good, not that I'm suggesting that all are good—in fact, we need more mechanisms for bad actors in this space—take great pride in making sure that their workers are taken care of when they come to this country.

That's a reflection that I can leave with you. Do you have any comment on the role of AAFC in relation to working with ESDC to make sure these programs remain consistent and reliable, I'll say, for the agriculture community, particularly in horticulture?

[Stefanie Beck]

Do I have three seconds or...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I'm the chair, so you can have as much time as you want. We have about a minute.

[Stefanie Beck]

Just to confirm, we work extremely closely with ESDC. I want to be really clear that it's not just here in the national capital region, but also across the country—everywhere that this is a challenge, which is pretty much everywhere, in fact.

As you know, many boutique programs have been created over the last few years, so there is a need to rationalize what makes the most sense and, frankly, what's the most simple for employers and for future employees alike. We have seen more money go into health and welfare programs for those working in Canada, and we're very pleased with the results of the recognized employer program. There are significant consultations under way, and we are supporting others in gathering exactly what will be needed. We're hoping for a really great outcome for the sector.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Ms. Beck.

I must advise the committee that, unfortunately, I need to leave, but Mr. Barlow will assume the chair for the remainder of the meeting.

Mr. Perron for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ianiro, you responded to part of my question earlier. Yesterday evening, I talked about another issue with the Minister of Health, in connection with duck farming, 80% of which is concentrated in Quebec. There's something going on in terms of imports and genetics, and the import of ducks from France has been suspended after that country introduced a vaccination program. Now, there's a reliable source of unvaccinated ducks that could be imported, but there's an impasse because it seems that the CFIA isn't filling out paperwork, responding to requests, or co‑operating with the industry.

Could you clarify this situation? Soon, production will be compromised.

[Stefanie Beck]

Before I turn the floor over to my CFIA colleague, I want to tell you that the health of Canadians consumers is paramount.

[Robert Ianiro]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Perron. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of the situation you just described.

However, I'd be more than pleased to take this back. If there's anything we can do from an importation and import certification perspective or if there are any slowdowns from CFIA, I'd be happy to take those details back and work with our colleagues in the operations branch to determine where the blockage is.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I see. Please provide us with the information, and I'm also going to follow up with the minister because there's a problem.

Ms. Beck, we're well aware of health concerns, which we often discuss here in committee. Obviously, we're not questioning the independence of scientists because we know each other and you know that's not the case.

However, there is a problem when it comes to reciprocity of standards. Our producers are unable to export to Japan, Taiwan and China because the paperwork isn't being completed. It's surprising and a little ironic, because the government usually seems to like paperwork. Yet at the same time, duck products that don't necessarily meet our standards are being imported from Thailand, Hungary and France. This is a major long-term problem, and I hope you'll pass the message on to your successor, following up on what Mr. Lehoux said earlier about the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.

We often talk about reciprocity of standards, but we also talk about cutting red tape. We met with Sollio representatives on the same day, I believe. Labour Market Impact Assessments, or LMIAs, are only valid for six months now. Where did this idea come from? We had proposed making them valid for five years, or even to stop requiring them in certain sectors, because there's no workforce. In fact, only 7% of Canadians are prepared to work in the agri-food sector. So it doesn't make sense for LMIAs to be valid for a maximum of six months.

It seems like we're speaking into a vacuum when we ask to cut red tape. We met with the president of the Union des producteurs over a year ago. In the case of foreign workers, he had submitted a short questionnaire to us that would cut paperwork by about two thirds, but it had not been processed yet. We attached it to our report, but it's still not in place. I find that hard to understand. I'll stop there, I've finished ranting.

Mr. Ianiro, I met with some chicken producers this week. For almost five years now, they've been telling me about the DNA test that can detect chicken passed off as spent fowl at the border. When this chicken arrives in Canada, it's super-easy: you open the package, cut it into quarters, write “chicken” on the wrapping and send it off to the grocery stores. It just doesn't make sense to me. A test exists and you're already doing inspections. From my external point of view, it would be easy to integrate this test into the inspection points. Why don't you do it? Are we afraid of creating a chill with the Americans? What's the real reason? I want to understand the logic.

[Robert Ianiro]

I believe you're referring to the DNA testing that Trent University put forward. Our understanding is that it has demonstrated some merits but requires some additional refinements before we are able to consider it for regulatory testing perspectives and purposes. We're aware of it, and if this is an additional tool that we can use to detect fraudulent and misrepresented, in this case, spent fowl that's being passed off as chicken at the border, we'll surely consider putting additional measures in place. I'll also indicate that we're continuing to work with our colleagues at CBSA to prioritize these types of shipments—that's already in place—and are working with our colleagues at the USDA on this issue.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Ianiro, I hear what you're saying, but it seems to me that we've been told the same thing several times, although not necessarily by you. Things need to move forward.

I have another question about a request that seems quite simple to me from the outside looking in.

Cattle producers are asking for 40 weeks instead of 36 weeks to finish calves imported from the United States. We import dairy cows that will spend their lives here. However, when it comes to calves, there are regulations once they are here. Regulations are fine, and again, we understand that they're science-based. Regardless, it seems to me that an additional four weeks to significantly increase the profitability of our producers is a simple request. Cattle producers still haven't received an answer. Can you give me one?