Agriculture Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[Robert Ianiro]

I do have a couple of things to add, Mr. Perron. If you want to discuss this further in the second part of the meeting, I can tell you more about it.

I just want to be clear that the three farms I think you're making reference to are suggesting that there was a detection of low pathogenic avian influenza. I want to be clear that low pathogenic avian influenza can very much and very quickly turn to other strains of high pathogenic avian influenza.

We actually detected this particular case in these three farms at the slaughter plant. It shows that our surveillance is working in detecting this at slaughter. You're correct that we compensated the producers. I think the challenge is they were compensated at the rate of a regular duck, whereas in this case, the producer was disappointed insofar as he wasn't getting market value for foie gras.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Ianiro. We'll come back to this in the second hour because I have more questions for you, and you'll probably be the one responding.

Minister, we were talking about avian flu, but let's move on to African swine fever.

Is Canada ready for an outbreak? We recently met with pork producers to discuss creating zones. These zones will help us prevent what just happened with avian flu, when containers ready for shipment were not shipped after a declaration was received. If these zones are negotiated with the countries we export to before cases are reported, we can minimize the damage. Are you having discussions about this? Is anything happening? Is there an emergency fund for this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

We're at the time. I will allow the minister to respond.

I'm going to caution my colleagues to be careful with the patience of the chair when we get right down to it and you're still reaming out a question at zero. That's not how this is supposed to work.

Go ahead, Mr. Minister, for a brief response.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Yes, we have a zoning agreement with Italy and other countries around the world. We're working hard to create zones because, pray to God, it doesn't happen in this country. A lot of work is being done in the country, tabletop exercises, on how we would deal with the African swine fever should it ever hit here.

When I was minister previously, it was a big issue. Then I came back, and it's still a big issue. However, we kept it out of the country to this point, and pray God we can. We're taking every measure possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. MacGregor, you have six minutes. We go over to you.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back to the committee, Minister.

With my first question, I want to talk to you about the persistent case of food price inflation. I will acknowledge that the rate has gone down, but a lot of Canadians are still feeling the pinch. There has certainly been some work done in terms of giving more legislative authority to the Competition Bureau. I know there's an industry-led grocery code of conduct. That aside, a lot of Canadians are still feeling the pinch because, in the middle of our food supply system—and this, I would argue, is harming both our producers and consumers—we still have a severely concentrated marketplace in grocery retail.

Over the last few months I attempted with my limited resources to introduce legislation to address the problem of shrinkflation, to have some kind of transparency on how unit pricing is done, but also to try to get more food co-operatives set up in Canada so that we can provide some honest competition to the big grocery giants.

I understand that these areas fall primarily under the purview of your colleague, the Minister of Industry, but my question for you, Minister, is, given this persistent problem, why have you failed in advocating with your colleague to get this problem addressed? It's not like it's new. Canadians have been suffering through this for several years now.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

You're right that the problem is not new and it's a big issue, but you're also right that prices have adjusted somewhat, but not enough. You're also right that the Competition Bureau, under the Competition Act, which is not under my jurisdiction, has been changed in order to allow more competition in the country. I think that's what you want to see happen, too. Of course, if you're going to have more co-ops and more competition in the sector—yes, of course, competition is the spice of business—it brings everybody to a reality, and I would be very strong on that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay, but again it's fallen to me, as a member of the opposition, to actually come up with legislative proposals.

What I want to understand is why the Government of Canada, with its considerable resources, has not done the same. I understand that we are in a bit of a deadlock in the House, but that doesn't stop your government from coming forward with, at least, some proposals on the matter.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, as you know, the grocery code of conduct, which was quite an issue, and—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

It's industry-led.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It's absolutely industry-led, with some assistance from government, but that is more of a long-term.... It's long term, but my understanding is it's not going to lower the price of groceries; it's just going to make it more fair and more visible as to what takes place.

Being a farmer, I well understand. You hear, “from the gate to the plate.” There's no problem at the gate but before it gets to the plate, yes, there is a problem.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I think we have to tackle the middlemen, Minister. Thank you.

I want to switch to the SCAP. As you know, that is in place from April 1, 2023—last year—until March 31, 2028. We had numerous witnesses who are quite concerned that with that locked-in timeline, there's little room to change programs, which may not be adequately serving the population they're designed for. This has come from no less than Keith Currie, president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture.

Minister, given that we are locked in and you have, in the supplementary estimates, $42 million listed here, what are you doing to respond to the needs of farmers, which have been clearly brought forward to this committee? What are you doing to alleviate their concerns and, maybe, show that you're willing to take some leadership on this, and possibly finding ways to make sure that these programs are more responsive, and not waiting until March 31, 2028?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Of course we want to make them more responsive, I can assure you, and that's my job to do that. Any program that is more difficult to deal with, we would certainly take action on it.

I'll let the deputy explain the requirements for this, but we want to make sure that in any program, no matter what—and in agriculture, sometimes it's the problem to get it in a form that people understand and are able to access—at any time that I can do anything to make it more accessible, I will do it, for sure.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Well, maybe I will come back to your deputy in the next round because I only have just over a minute left with you, and I want to make sure that I have questions with you.

Minister, I'm sure you've met with the National Farmers Union before. It has long been calling for the establishment of a Canadian farm resilience agency to better build capacity in your department for better climate adaptation. We know that farmers are repeatedly telling us that they are on the front lines of climate change.

The on-farm climate action fund did a lot of contracting out to approximately 12 third party organizations rather than have that in-house capacity. How do you react to their proposal for this Canadian farm resilience agency? Are you going to treat this matter with the seriousness that it deserves and try to actually build that in-house capacity rather than fall prey to what the federal government usually does, which is contract that out and lose that important knowledge that we could have in-house with our great public servants?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Alistair, thank you very much.

What we want to do.... Sometimes we have to go outside of the department in order...if we don't have the proper clientele in place to deal with it.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

How are you going to build it—in-house?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I don't know if I'm going to hire more people to do this.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You're the minister, sir.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Yes, but also we want to make sure that the funds go to where they should go. That is what we want to make sure they do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go to our second round.

Ms. Rood, you have up to five minutes, please.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, we recently heard testimony that refunds to farmers from the fertilizer tariffs were withdrawn and that they've been ordered to pay those tariffs back—with interest, at that.

Minister, was this your decision? If not, whose decision was it? Do you have the authority to make decisions of this kind, or do you have to defer to the Minister of Environment for agricultural policy?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Are you talking about the Russian fertilizer ban? As you know, that was—

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I'm talking about the tariffs.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Yes, and you know why they were put in place.

[Lianne Rood, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Of course. However, last week at committee, we also heard from the fertilizer company that refunds were given for the tariffs collected. Then, 11 months later, the government came back and said that farmers actually owe it this money back and have to pay interest on it.