Agriculture Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

Maybe I will then skip to Mr. Thompson.

You touched on, as I was saying, the goals for 2030. You talked of maintaining 35 million acres preserved for grasslands. We talked about that ecosystem as both sequestering carbon and promoting biodiversity. For 2030, are you working backwards for that? Can we help you get to 2030? What can we do to help preserve that grassland for carbon sequestration and for biodiversity?

[Duane Thompson]

I think you have a good understanding of the fact that the grassland is an important ecosystem and provides so much value to the greater economy and society in general.

Number one, we have to figure out a way to promote the stabilization and prevent the conversion from further conversion because, as I mentioned, we're losing it at an alarming rate. If we had programs that perhaps showed the value of the carbon sequestration that's happening on those grasslands, then producers like me could look at that and, rather than seeding that piece of land that might not grow the best canola, we could leave it in forages, value that carbon and not promote the grain farming side of my operation. If that happens, if we take the forages out, there would be a huge carbon release, which would happen on the natural lands as well.

We have to have ways and programming that can effectively support and promote grasslands to be maintained in grasslands, just like the crop insurance and the shared premium. That would be huge, especially for our young producers, to support grasslands and beef production.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Are you already able to measure and quantify carbon sequestration? Who are you working with in that case? That's one of the things we want to learn, moving forward, how we can measure those numbers so we can compensate and reward for them.

[Duane Thompson]

That's one of my pet things. The quantification of carbon and optimizing our system and optimizing the practices is really an important thing. I think the answer is, no, we're not at the point where we can quantify it effectively. I really hesitate to promote best management practices on a value basis, but I would suggest that best management practices can be suggested and then encourage a quantification of carbon sequestration. That way, everybody in their system, on their operations, can say this is what I can do for my finances and the environment and come out in an economical balance and promote the two together.

The Food Water Wellness Foundation is doing great work on quantification, and it looks like they're coming up with quite a financially viable way of doing it. I would suggest we're working towards it; however, we're not there yet.

[Fawn Jackson, Director, Policy and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association]

If I could just add in, Duane, I think we're working on the finer details of the quantification. We do know there is about 1.5 billion tonnes of carbon within the grasslands that are managed by beef producers, but when we go to add even more carbon through best management practices, there's further research to be done there to get it to a little bit finer detail.

What we do know is that, when lands are converted, if it's converted into a cityscape or if it's converted into some other agricultural use, about 30% to 40% of the carbon is lost.

[Duane Thompson]

Can I just add one more thing, please? By not promoting and not encouraging people to optimize their system on the grasslands that they manage right now, and if we develop programs that encourage new practices and people who have been doing it a long time.... We have to be very careful that we don't develop programs that encourage people like me to do something new, because I can do something new in two years. We can take forages out and put them back into forages, so we have to make sure the producers who have been managing well-managed, environmentally sustainable systems aren't discouraged from continuing that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Thompson.

Thank you, Mr. Louis. We're at time, unfortunately.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses and thank them for being with us today to give us their precious testimony.

Mr. Thompson, I'd like to let you continue. You say that people who already have good practices in place should be included and not discouraged. Are you thinking of a measurement system that would allow us to assess the current state of farms? You say there are techniques you don't have yet to measure carbon, but according to some of the witnesses we've heard from, the technologies are evolving rapidly, so something could be put in place in the near future.

If we devised a way of measuring the current state of each piece of land, take into account the starting point of each one and encourage those who are already doing well, would that answer your question?

[Duane Thompson]

Absolutely. That is a key point. We're getting very close with the technology. I understand that in the States there is some infrared type of technology. They do a balance of organic growth and some soil sampling, and then they can do it from satellite imagery. As I mentioned, the Food Water Wellness Foundation is getting some very good results and feeling pretty comfortable with the results.

Of course, it has to be cost-effective. They can't have people out punching soil samples and it's burdensome. At the end of the day, it has to be cost-effective because if we, as producers, are encouraged to do these environmental impacts and be sustainable, and we can quantify our carbon levels at an economic level, then we have to be the major benefactor of that. We can't have the aggregators and the system taking the lion's share. If we can be the benefactors of these sustainable environmental practices and show the results that we have.... On our farm alone, we have land that's almost triple the average organic matter. That's a key factor in sustainability, and so many things that go with that.

Yes, we have to work toward that research.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

So you would recommend that the committee consider what's been done in the past.

There are a lot of very interesting things in what you’re saying. One of them is that it has to be effective.

Would you recommend to the committee that this compensation system be decentralized? In other words, this system would not be included in a government‑mandated program, but rather would be tailored, on a case‑by‑case basis, with a local assessment. The starting point would be the ecological performance of the soil right now, if I can call it that. Then, after a period of time, the new performance could be measured and quantified.

I will give you my personal opinion and you can tell me if it makes sense. I would see this as a new AgriInvest program. The UPA talks about an agri‑green program. Money would be directly available to farmers in accounts. As agricultural entrepreneurs, you could use this money to implement the next environmental innovation. This way, you could continuously improve your performance, which would be continually quantified, encouraged and compensated, in order to always go further. This would all be done in a decentralized way, though.

Does it make sense?

[Duane Thompson]

I think you and I have a lot in common that we could talk about.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

It's a good answer.

[Duane Thompson]

It is important that we do it on a regional basis, because regionality.... Even in Saskatchewan, production systems are.... There's such an incredible diversity of what landowners are managing. You're dead on. You're absolutely right that we cannot do it on a broad spectrum. We have to do it more locally, in a more geographical area, if you may. I like the idea of what you're saying as a potential investment.

Farmers are the original environmentalists. Our very existence depends on it. I'm fourth generation. My kids are fifth generation. I have grandchildren who are sixth generation. It's in my very best interests to be an environmentalist.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Thompson, I'm sorry to interrupt. We're getting on quite nicely and could talk for hours. However, I would like to hear quickly from Ms. Gowriluk and Ms. Miller on this same issue before my time runs out.

Do you think a similar system should be decentralized?

[Susie Miller]

There are opportunities and room for both. One of the things that we did two years ago was have the University of Alberta look at the literature that was out there and the research that had been done that could show the impact of different practices on a grain farmer's carbon output and carbon footprint. There was nothing.

In terms of farm practices, there has to be the basis of good science, which is very challenging to do farm by farm, or even region by region. When it comes to the proofing of those practices, demonstrating those practices and implementing those practices, absolutely. Farmers have told us that it has to be responsive to their needs, and a region isn't necessarily a province. There are differences within, as Mr. Thompson indicated—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Ms. Miller.

Thank you, Mr. Perron. I'm sorry. We're at time.

I'm going to move to Mr. MacGregor, for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That's great. Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses. I'm going to ask a question and I'd like to hear from each of you in response.

In Australia, there are efforts well under way right now to implement a national soil strategy. It's going to set out how that country values, manages and improves its soil for the next 20 years. I like comparing Canada with Australia because, of course, we're both Commonwealth countries. We both have very similar systems of government. With their capital in Canberra, their state governments have similar devolution powers to those that our provinces have.

This is really a huge undertaking. They have done it through consultation with many different stakeholders. They want to make sure that it is prioritizing soil health, that it is empowering soil innovation and stewards, and that it's going to strengthen soil knowledge and capability.

Ms. Gowriluk, maybe I'll start with you. What are your thoughts on Australia's efforts in this regard, and do you think Canada could benefit from implementing a similar strategy where we really reach out to stakeholders so that we have a united federal effort at recognizing this as being one of our most valuable resources?

[Erin Gowriluk]

Mr. MacGregor, thank you very much for the question.

I'm not familiar with the strategy itself, but based on what you've told me about it today, it's definitely something worth exploring. To your last point, though, it's critical that any time we look at a strategy such as this Canadian farmers across the country are part of the discussion. I think they would welcome the opportunity to do that.

That's part of what we intended to do, or are intending to do, with the Grain Growers of Canada road map to net zero by 2050. That is to have a national discussion with grain farmers across the country on areas where we have greater potential and we know we can do more—to identify those areas, provide some solid recommendations to the government and work closely with our government partners to ensure that policies and programs reflect the best interests of Canadian farmers. This is one area that we'll certainly be exploring as part of that discussion.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Ms. Miller.

[Susie Miller]

To your question, I would answer, yes.

The Soil Conservation Council of Canada and the Compost Council of Canada have recently published a road map to soil improvement. There's a lot of research going on, but to try to work together even to understand where the opportunities are for improvement is an excellent idea. It is certainly something in which the farmers we talk to would be very interested in participating.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Could I hear next from the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, please?

[Duane Thompson]

It would be a great idea. I'm not familiar with the Australian program, but going back to our own history even, my dad was part of the SOS program, Save Our Soils, back in the early 1980s. Farmers have made really great strides since then.

The dirt is our very existence, so a national soil strategy would be a very good thing and Canadian cattle producers could be a very important component of that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

There's a certain private member's bill, Bill C-203, that you might all be interested in looking at for further research.

I thank each of you for your answers on that.

I'll turn to the Canadian Cattlemen's Association. On your website, your organization has an article posted from February 22, entitled “Curbing methane emissions will take a team effort”. It's an in-depth approach to the different feed additives that are under development, trying to reduce methane emissions from ruminants—from dairy and from beef cattle.

We also know that there is potentially promising research out there with the development of different genetic stocks and so on, which could provide some steeper long-term decreases in methane emissions.

When you look at the research, I know research takes a lot of time to get it right. However, when you look at the progress of research both in developing those feed additives and their approval for commercial use but also the different genetics, bloodlines, that might also yield some incredible results, are you happy with the way that research is progressing?

If there's any room for improvement, is there anything that our committee could specifically be recommending to the federal government on aiding that research even further? Does the federal government need to pay more attention to funding that research because of the potential it might yield in terms of an absolute reduction in our methane emissions?

[Duane Thompson]

Fawn, you're very well versed in this. Could you take that one?

[Fawn Jackson]

Sure.

First of all, Canada has 50% of the greenhouse gas footprint of the global world average. The reason we have that is that we've invested in research for a long time. In the research around 3-NOP, which is one these feed additives you're alluding to, one of the biggest studies was done in Canada. It indicates that around 70% to 80% of emissions may actually be able to be reduced.

We know that research works. We also know that we have to invest in it for a really long time. These are the foundations of all our environmental work. We need to make sure that we are not getting distracted by shiny stars over here and turning away from things that we know deliver long term. For us, it is going to be very key to continue to invest in A-base research to make sure that these tools are continuing to be developed because it takes a long time to develop them.

Thanks for that question.