Agriculture Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Dr. Rod MacRae]

I'm quite comfortable with the national food policy that was put forward by the current government in 2019. I think, again, the issue is not the visions and the principles; it's the implementation. A lot of what's in play and what's being proposed to reach the vision, I don't think will get us there. I have similar observations on what's happening in a lot of the provinces as well.

My vision is not all that different. It's more elaborated, perhaps, on the ecological side, but what's critically important, as I said, is the redesign of a lot of the instruments we're putting forward to reach those visions.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

You spoke on a few challenges that farmers face already, but what, in your opinion, is the greatest opportunity for us to address on this committee?

[Dr. Rod MacRae]

When you look at the studies on why farmers don't make changes, why they don't shift to more sustainable practices, they name about 15 different barriers. We think that they're mostly financial, and obviously some of them are financial, but there are also many what are called “psychosocial barriers” such as one's status in the community, how one relates to other institutions and how one's banker interprets what one is doing. All these kinds of psychosocial dimensions can be very significant.

Part of the challenge for us now is that if we're going to implement changes that involve supporting the transition period, it's not just about providing money but also ensuring that this takes place in a way that addresses these psychosocial barriers.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Cullen, could you tell us how you started City of Greens farm, and what environmental techniques you feel can be really leveraged across the country?

[Ryan Cullen]

Sure. Thank you.

As I mentioned before, I don't come from a farming background. I grew up in the city, but I was travelling the world and working in Thailand on a number of permaculture projects. Actually, Mr. Toensmeier's book, Edible Forest Gardens, was a big inspiration in my life.

I started out of general interest, and I took my teaching skills and went back to college. One of my biggest platforms for starting my farm was that we had a great horticulture food and farming program at our local college. I think if we have more institutions like that developing, teaching and training people like me, who can get into this field with the proper skill set, that's a big thing. I would certainly champion it.

For your second question, we very much focus on cover crops, soil building, cycling nutrients on our farm, catching and storing water and reusing it, creating our own input from our own waste, feeding our chickens excess produce from the gardens, and integrating livestock systems into our soil generation. As I said, we're catching and storing nutrients as much as we can and trying to mimic nature, mimicking forest ecosystems and applying them in our annual and perennial production systems. That's what we do.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

We talk a lot about incentives. What incentives do you think farmers, especially small-scale farmers, could really use or be incentivized by to be able to continue to produce sustainable technologies?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Could we have an answer in about 20 seconds, please?

[Ryan Cullen]

Sure. For us I think it's consumer awareness. I just want to sell more to more local people. The more we can change consumer demand and change consumer perspectives, I think that goes a long way to the viability of small-scale farms like ours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cullen and Mrs. Valdez.

Go ahead, Mr. Perron. You have two minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Toensmeier, I'll turn to you again.

You mentioned earlier in your opening remarks that carbon sequestration could sometimes be seen as a short‑term solution and that, if the way the land is cultivated changes in the future, there would be a danger that the carbon will be released. To me, this illustrates the need for the financial support program to be relatively permanent.

Can you elaborate on that, please?

[Eric Toensmeier]

Yes, it's necessary if you're building your national strategy around carbon and soils, or trees for that matter, to put measures in place that make sure it will stay there. Otherwise, it will be re-emitted or it can be re-emitted. That's a critical concern that people are thinking about around the world with carbon sequestration and national plans.

Also, think about how you want to handle it if something happens that's outside of the farmer's control, like a fire or an extended multi-year drought, a shift to a drier climate, which will mean the loss of some of that soil carbon. These are important things to build in.

I don't particularly have the answers to how that might be done, but it would certainly be something to take into account, that it's somewhat vulnerable.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Even if you don't have a specific answer, Mr. Toensmeier, would you recommend that the government not opt for programs that are too restrictive, but rather for a model that is as decentralized as possible? That way, farmers could make decisions that are good for their farms.

[Eric Toensmeier]

I do think flexibility is essential. Mandating specific practices often might have a negative effect on a particular farm. You do need to build in some ability to meet those individual farm's needs. Something might work in one soil type and not in another, for example.

Without creating a bureaucratic monstrosity that's a nightmare for everyone to work with, to the degree that you can build that in, it will make farmers much happier to participate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Toensmeier and Mr. Perron.

Mr. MacGregor, we have about a minute before we're at 15 minutes. I want to be respectful to our colleagues. I might have to apologize to you, but perhaps we can adjourn at this point if that's okay.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I just need a minute, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Go right ahead.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Toensmeier, I just want to give you a chance to expand on agroforestry and building on the two billion trees initiative. The federal government is funding that, but given Canada's climate, what kinds of crop trees would you like to see us focus on? What crop trees hit the markers of profitability but are also great at sequestering carbon?

Can you expand a little bit more on that in 30 seconds, please?

[Eric Toensmeier]

I'm very enthusiastic about willows and poplars, which can grow to very high latitudes in Canada, for short rotation biomass systems. It's not particularly for energy as my focus, but they have lots of applications in the material and chemical feedstock industries, where they could replace fossil-based carbon inputs in certain ways.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor. I apologize.

Thank you, Mr. Toensmeier.

We are at time, folks.

Thank you to our witnesses, Mr. Toensmeier, Mr. Cullen and Mr. MacRae, for your excellent testimony here today.

Colleagues, we will be back on Thursday to continue our draft consideration of the supply chain in agriculture report. We'll see everyone on Thursday.

Thank you to all those involved. Take care. We're going to adjourn.