Agriculture Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Ryan Cullen]

Sure.

As I said before, we're certified by our customers. We're very transparent in how we grow. We grow organically. I don't feel there needs to be a certifying body or regulating body that tells us farmers how we can grow our best products. I think we're certified by our customers. We're transparent about how we grow. They can come to the farm and see that we don't spray pesticides, that we grow in organic soils, that we use organic inputs and how our farm is run. It's up to the consumer to decide and make that decision.

I think the costs and the time associated with getting organic certification just doesn't make a lot of sense, especially at certain scales.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Mr. MacGregor now has the floor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll repeat my colleagues by thanking all of our witnesses for aiding us in this study.

Mr. Toensmeier, I'd like to start with you.

I really appreciated your sink analogy with respect to climate change—the faucet and also the spillover on the floor. I think we acknowledge that agriculture's greatest role is probably in acting as a mop, in trying to sequester the excess carbon that we've put into the atmosphere.

I appreciate the shout-out to my Bill C-203. I really took a lot of inspiration from what Australia is doing. They have older soils there, generally, which are not very high in carbon content, and they are losing billions of dollars' worth of farm production every year due to erosion. It was turning into a real national crisis there. I also like how they are going to establish the office of a soils advocate, someone who can be in a position to keep pressure on the government and act as a nexus for public opinion but also for stakeholder relations, to continue to push those policies.

You've authored a book called The Carbon Farming Solution. I've read that book. I've seen many examples of what other countries are doing. With respect to agroforestry and all of the examples that you've included in that book, for the benefit of our committee, I was wondering if you could talk about other countries, apart from Australia.

What are some of the notable countries that are putting these practices into amazing effect that we could perhaps study and learn from?

[Eric Toensmeier]

The first one would be France. It has really been leading the way in research and development and agroforestry, and it has a national commitment to convert a million and a half acres of cropland to agroforestry over the next decade or two.

Another outstanding example until recently was Brazil, where all of the public schools were required to buy at least 30% of their food from farms that were part of agroforestry using a sustainable production method.

I really appreciate what's being done in Mexico. Ranchers who have been subsidized by the federal government because they haven't been producing efficiently, profitably, have been provided the finances to convert to a silvopasture system, in which they integrate trees. This greatly intensifies production there. They have two to 10 times a higher stocking rate in these intensive silvopasture systems, lower emissions and higher carbon sequestration, after which the farmers don't need subsidies anymore, because they've become more profitable.

Those are a few examples.

As well, there is Australia. There is much to be learned from efforts there. One of my favourite things is that they were addressing savannah burning by changing the time of year in which savannahs are burned, and actually rewarding, recognizing, appreciating and financing the indigenous communities there who used to manage much of Australia with fire in that fashion and bringing them into their carbon payment scheme. I think Australia is a great model for Canada in many ways.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I'm sure you're aware that the federal government has committed to an initiative to plant two billion trees. In a previous life, I was a tree planter, so I know the work that's going to be involved in getting that up to speed.

Would you like to see a significant portion of that tree planting initiative focus more on trees that can be used for fuel, for fibre or for crops? Would you like to see a significant portion of that program devoted towards agriculture specifically?

[Eric Toensmeier]

Personally, I would. The carbon sequestration rates on farms that have trees integrated into them are three to five times higher than on those with the improved cropping and improved grazing systems alone. Where it actually can improve profitability and productivity, it does make sense to do that from a carbon perspective.

There is also a significant nitrous oxide reduction from integrating trees into farms. Their roots capture fertilizer that would otherwise leach away and off-gas as nitrous oxide.

Yes, I would strongly encourage you...and I would be delighted to talk further about it at great length with anyone there.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That sounds like a pretty solid recommendation that our committee could make in that regard. I really do appreciate that.

For my final question, I'll turn to City of Greens farm. I really liked your intervention on regenerative farming practices.

We heard from Professor MacRae, who was talking about incentivizing the transition to regenerative farming. I was wondering if you could talk about, from your experience, what you wish, looking back, might have been on offer from the federal government to help you set up your farm.

[Ryan Cullen]

Thank you. It's a great question.

Typically, there are not a lot of incentives in terms of funding or access to funds, especially for small-scale growers. A lot of the programs developed by government or to access capital are typically for larger-scale farms.

For the small-scale grower or bio-intensive grower, there are not a lot of avenues and ways in which to access funds or capital to get started. Getting access to land for someone like me, who doesn't come from a traditional farming background or a farming family, is also very difficult. The high capitalization involved with buying land and real estate and getting a farm going is very difficult. If there were ways to access capital for smaller-scale growers to start some of these bio-intensive farms, that would be super.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Colleagues, the bells have started ringing. As we agreed on previously, I'll let us go about 15 minutes, and then we'll release so that folks have time to vote in person.

I will go to the second round, but we're going to keep it to four minutes for both the Conservatives and the Liberals, and two minutes for the Bloc and the NDP.

I think it might be Mr. Epp, for four minutes, if you'd like the additional time.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Yes. I'd like to begin with the Durham farm. What would you define as being “local”?

[Ryan Cullen]

For us, it's our immediate community. In Durham region—if you're familiar, you know—there's Oshawa, Ajax and Pickering. For us, that's local.

Depending on where we are in our municipality, we try to serve our community within our region. There are a few million people. Our small farm on 10 acres can only really serve 150 of them. What we need is more small-scale farms in our context, so that we can serve more people and make farming the centre of the community.

I'd like to see more farms that are urban, peri-urban and integrating the rural, traditional agriculture with more urban, small-scale, bio-intensive farms right in the city, so that instead of driving to Costco and big box superstores, they can get access to local produce from local farms, and it's right on their doorsteps.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

I'll ask for your quick comment. I flew in this morning. I brought peppers and some cucumbers that I sourced a kilometre up the road in a greenhouse. They were grown pesticide-free in a 100-acre production facility. Am I eating locally tonight?

[Ryan Cullen]

Yes, I would say you are. Congratulations on that effort.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

To Mr. MacRae, can you give me your assessment of Canada's regulatory framework? How responsive is it?

I'm looking forward to some technologies that hold a lot of promise, like gene editing. We heard about that from the previous panel this morning. Can I have your comments on the state of our regulatory system in its ability to quickly adopt technologies that have so much promise environmentally?

[Dr. Rod MacRae]

I think our regulatory system still suffers from its roots, if you will. A lot of our regulations were designed around fraud prevention. Obviously, fraud prevention is important, but now we're in a situation where, as you say, we're trying to figure out how to support certain kinds of transitions toward sustainability, whether they're management-related or technology-related.

I would say that our regulatory apparatus, as I've highlighted with much of our program instruments, is not yet up to the challenge of helping us move rapidly in this direction.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

What's needed?

[Dr. Rod MacRae]

That's what my website is all about. I have hundreds of proposals for how we need to change all kinds of government instruments at all levels of government. I'd encourage you to look at my proposals there.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Would you support a very regionalized approach to implementing many of the strategies you've outlined, because of the diversity in our agricultural sector?

[Dr. Rod MacRae]

Yes. Part of our dilemma is that we've focused for too long on export and not enough on regionalization. We also haven't done much in the realm of import substitution. Those are critical areas that need much more attention.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

To the Perennial Agriculture Institute, in a perennialized system, how do vegetables fit in?

[Eric Toensmeier]

There are many perennial vegetables. I've written several books about them. Many of them are extremely high in the nutrients that people have the greatest deficiencies in, in countries like Canada.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

My farm's name is Lycoland Farms Limited,, coming from lycopersicon esculentum, a tomato perspective.

How would you integrate into that industry? How would you integrate that into your philosophy?

[Eric Toensmeier]

The tomato is not easily perennialized at this point. We don't have a good substitute. Annuals are great. We should grow the things that are annual and grow them well, but we can supplement with many other perennial vegetables.

The great advantage, to me, for perennial vegetables in cold climates, is that they're yielding much earlier in the spring. I've been eating them here in Massachusetts for a month already. They have a seasonality that is much earlier than the annual crops, so they extend the growing season in a fashion that I find is very complementary, compared with annual vegetables like tomatoes—which I appreciate and grow, by the way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Toensmeier.

Thank you, Mr. Epp. I gave you wine. I guess I'm looking for a basket of tomatoes at some point. I'll hold you to that.

Ms. Valdez, you have four minutes.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being a part of this important study. I love tomatoes. I'm just saying that.

Dr. MacRae, your research is focused on creating a national food policy for Canada. I want to give you the opportunity to elaborate on that policy and what your vision is for Canada.