Agriculture Committee on Sept. 28th, 2022

[Dr. Evan Fraser]

Literally.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

But we've noticed, actually, the fragility of that supply network. When the B.C. flood happened, we noticed it. Obviously, it's a danger.

Dr. Fraser, while I have you here, it's good to see you.

The second point you mentioned is financial incentives and carbon markets. Having spoken to farmers, I know they are ready to participate in a carbon market, even for carbon offsets for other companies. Sometimes the problem is this: How do you measure it and how do you make it less cumbersome on farmers, meaning not having auditors come on your land and perform audits, which increases the red tape?

Have you seen technologies that could reduce that burden on farmers so that they can participate in that marketplace?

[Dr. Evan Fraser]

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head there. The technical language is the measurement, verification and reporting system, the MRVs, to measure both the additional carbon that is sequestered by, say, a change in management practices, as well as the permanence of that carbon in the soil.

Up until now, most of the MRVs have been based on audits. They have been cumbersome and extremely expensive to administer. It costs more to administer them than the value of the carbon at current carbon market prices. However, I am pretty optimistic that with a bit of a sprint and some concerted effort, we could move an MRV out of the field and into a remote sensing process. Really, what we need to be working towards is what they call “passive collection”, meaning satellite imagery tied with soil science monitors through an Internet of things network. It's the sort of stuff that GIFS and Steve work on. I know we're working on it. The Royal Bank project that I alluded to is very focused on this stuff.

Over the next two or three years, can we marshal the science to move MRVs from a ground level, ground truth monitoring system to something than can be done by remote sensing? The short answer is yes, but it's still going to take a little bit of work. The academics I work with are very keen to work with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada and the Living Labs network to further that.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Dr. Webb, I know you've made some mention about the fertilizer emissions. I'm just asking, because I have 20 seconds, if you've made a submission to the consultation.

[Dr. Steve Webb]

Yes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Perfect. Thank you.

I'm done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Dr. Fraser, Dr. Webb and Mr. Drouin.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

Dr. Fraser, I'll continue with you. Try not to speak too quickly, as it can sometimes make the interpreters' job more difficult.

With regard to soil performance verification tools, you explained that, rather than going and taking measurements physically, they could be taken using satellite imagery. Did I understand correctly?

[Dr. Evan Fraser]

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, and also for the reminder to slow down. I appreciate both.

The state of the science right now is that we currently measure soil carbon using soil probes, soil sensors, which require people walking into the field and actually taking soil samples and measuring them. Increasingly, the goal is to use satellite imagery, which is now of a sufficient resolution that satellites are increasingly able to distinguish between major crop types, and then use the size and the colour of the foliage—the amount of green and the amount of red the plants reflect back—as a way of interpreting and interpolating how much carbon is being absorbed by the soil.

Now, this requires lots of artificial intelligence algorithms to link observations on the ground with the observations from the satellite. There's some scientific research that definitely needs to be done, so I do not want to say we are ready to launch a measurement, reporting and verification system using only remote sensing yet, but I think that with a few years of work—collecting soil data, relating it to remote sensing data—we should be able to build artificial intelligence algorithms that will predict, based on a small questionnaire that farmers would fill in, plus the remote sensing data, how much additional greenhouse gases are being absorbed by the soil.

That's the trajectory the scientists are on right now.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much for the clarification. That's much clearer.

So, I understand that the research hasn't been completed and that investment will be required to speed up the digital revolution that's under way.

Earlier in your brief, you also state that we need to fund sustainable practices, recognize what producers do and support them financially. How do you connect those together?

I see that you're asking for significant investment. It's not that I disagree—quite the contrary—but can you explain your vision?

[Dr. Evan Fraser]

There are two parts to the vision.

One is largely related to farmers who are currently producing grains or oilseeds, and livestock. A lot can be done to encourage those farmers to adopt management practices and technologies that are more energy-efficient, more efficient in terms of nutrient use and other inputs, and as Professor Webb said, management practices such as more complicated crop rotation that would help the soil build up organic matter. There's a wide range of technological and management practices a farmer can use in order for a farm to become a sink for greenhouse gases rather than a source of emissions; however, at the moment farmers are not incentivized to do that.

In a study I led a couple of years ago, we showed farmers areas where they could manage their farms more sustainably. Their response to us was, “Yes, we know that, but we don't get paid for it.” The concept that, say, the Royal Bank is playing with is this: Can we establish what we might call carbon farms, where farmers are financially rewarded both for the food they produce as well as for the greenhouse gases they absorb? That would be one part of the vision.

The second part of the vision is with regard to greenhouses, vertical farms and alternative protein supplies. I'm aware of, and participating in, initiatives in Israel or Singapore where the truly most cutting-edge science is being applied to food systems, and I'm worried that Canada doesn't have a comparable or equivalent sort of zone or nucleus of technological innovation in agriculture. It's specifically things like vertical farming or cellular agriculture. I think we are producing—

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'd like to get Mr. Walker's opinion on this issue.

Mr. Walker, you mentioned your pilot mill, which has helped reduce the number of milling cycles. After hearing Dr. Fraser's explanations, I'd like to hear what you have to say, in 30 seconds, on these types of innovative practices.

[Mark Walker]

Thank you for the question.

Our team of experts works with our customers based on their production needs for the end-use product. We have experienced situations in which a miller will come to us and say, “I'm having a conversation with my baker. They want something, I'm doing something, and there's a bit of a disconnect.” Our team, because we have both experts in-house, can have a conversation with both of them, be the go-between, as it were, and find a solution that works for both, because in this way they're quite complementary. That work has helped us help our customers around the world make the most efficient use of cereals, whether it's upcycling different kinds of bran or, as I mentioned, reducing the milling cycles, to make sure that what's being undertaken is exactly what's needed and that what's not needed is cast aside.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Walker and Mr. Perron.

Mr. MacGregor, you have six minutes. It's over to you.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to use the beginning of my six minutes just to read a notice of motion into the record, and I know the clerk has a copy of that motion in both official languages. The motion is as follows:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study on profit-driven inflation in the grocery sector and the costs of groceries going up while large chains are making record profits; that the committee examine the record profits of large grocery chains and their CEOs in relation to employee wages and the cost of groceries in Canada; that the committee also examine the ability of large grocery chains leveraging their size to cut into the earnings of Canadian farmers; that the committee invite witnesses with specific knowledge on profit-driven inflation and affected stakeholders from the industry, including grocer CEOs, economists, unions and farmers or representative organizations; that no fewer than six meetings are set aside to hear from witnesses; that the committee report its findings to the House and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the Government table a comprehensive response to the report.

That's just a notice of motion for all of my colleagues to consider in the coming days.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'll continue with my questions. I want to join with my colleagues in thanking the witnesses for appearing before our committee and helping to guide us through this study.

Dr. Fraser, I'd like to start with you and the Arrell Food Institute. I can remember when our committee visited the University of Guelph back in 2018, and we were really impressed with some of the amazing work that your university is undertaking.

I'm glad you mentioned climate change in your submission and mentioned it in your opening remarks. One of our earlier witnesses on this study was Oxfam, and they noted in their look at this issue that over the last 20 years there has been an 819% increase in weather-related humanitarian funding appeals. We have a huge crisis going on right now in the Horn of Africa. The head of the World Food Programme was in the news today, talking about the crisis that exists there. They are experiencing severe droughts that have impacted the ability of local farmers to produce food for the local population.

Then of course the region was hit with the war in Ukraine. Ukraine, being a breadbasket for the region, essentially had its exports of grain cut off for a number of months, and we're still recovering from that backlog. Also, climate change is impacting our farmers' abilities. My province of B.C. was cut off from the rest of Canada last November, and we know that farmers in the Prairies have experienced extreme droughts and extreme flooding events, which have impacted our ability to produce to our full potential.

At the same time that our country is trying to increase its production, we're also fighting this rearguard action against what climate change is doing to our production. We know that countries around the world are struggling with the same problems, but they don't have the resiliency and technological know-how or the funding resources that our government has.

I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how Canadian expertise and know-how could be used in places like countries in Africa to help build that local resiliency. When the rug is pulled out from underneath them, such as when a country like Ukraine suddenly has its exports cut, what can we do to build the resiliency and how can Canada step in to fill that void? If you have any thoughts on that in the next couple of minutes, they would be appreciated.

[Dr. Evan Fraser]

You should take my class in this course.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Evan Fraser]

Thank you for the question.

Resiliency often has different layers or different lines of defence. The ability of the ecosystem to produce food in a drought is the first line of defence. A farmer can build up soil organic matter and plant some windbreaks. Those are very practical things that don't necessarily need a lot of technology.

Working with the Oxfams or the Canadian Foodgrains Banks of this world to do on-the-ground development work in remote or vulnerable locations is a very, very good first start in building up the resilience of the agro-ecosystem. Then there's what I consider a technology layer. Can we use a drought-resilient seed? There are lots of challenges with how to use different kinds of seeds more or less equitably, but there are seeds we can breed to become more drought-resistant. Can we use remote sensing data, getting back to satellites, to predict when droughts might emerge so that we can help the World Food Programme position itself six, eight or 10 weeks in advance of a crisis? That's sort of a middle level of defence, with agro-ecosystem at the beginning and technology at the higher end.

There are also community-level defences and people working together: Can we invest in civil society?

Finally, your ultimate line of defence is organizations like the World Food Programme.

I think the appropriate strategy is to work at a portfolio level, at these different scales of defence, to build a comprehensive climate resilience portfolio. The specifics of how you do that would be different in Canada versus the Horn of Africa, but the fact that you have these layers of defence is pretty common across the world. That's where I would go.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

That takes me to my six minutes. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor and Dr. Fraser.

Colleagues, we have five minutes left in the first panel.

Mr. Epp, you have two and a half minutes, followed by Mr. Turnbull.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Falk, I was told that your mike wasn't....

First of all, I apologize. I thought it was Mr. Epp. It's over to you now for two and a half minutes.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses for attending and for their testimony here.

Yesterday I had the privilege of listening to David Beasley, the former governor of South Carolina and the current executive director of the UN World Food Programme. He was here in Parliament giving a presentation.

He said a few things, but he reiterated, Dr. Webb, some of the things you talked about—the looming global crisis that we face and the geopolitical instability that will be created by a food instability problem if we don't address that problem. You mentioned in your report that we need to consider innovation and regulatory issues and that regulatory issues need to be science-based. Could you expand a little bit further on regulations that we need to be innovative about?

[Dr. Steve Webb]

I think one of the opportunities for us in Canada is to have a regulatory system. A regulatory system is important. It builds confidence both domestically and internationally. What we have is a very complicated system that creates a lot of bottlenecks.

We celebrated the approval of gene editing by Health Canada, but we're still awaiting the CFIA's approval to be able to practice the technology. For perspective, that is about a decade behind where the United States was on the same ruling. Why do I know that? It was my team at Dow AgroSciences that led that first inquiry into the U.S. regulatory system. I think we need a process that's interactive and that can collaborate in work and provide feedback in real time to the companies that are submitting proposals, engaging stakeholders as well as the regulators.

Look, the COVID-19 vaccines went from idea to product in less than a year. We did not sacrifice safety and we did not sacrifice efficacy. It was done in a way that works. Again, we don't need a crisis to make the system work—

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I have just a few seconds left and I would like to get in another question, if I could.

You talked about capital investments. What is the most strategic capital investment we could be making now to become global leaders in food security?