Agriculture Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2022

[Benoit Legault]

What I was pointing out is that the power demand is particular to grain drying. Obviously, you would need at least a three-phase network, but I can't even tell you if that would be enough today or if you would need something more. The three-phase network also depends on the power demand. If there are thirty dryers on the same row, the lights should not start flickering in the houses around the grain-producing farms. I can't tell you what kind of electrical power that requires.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Legault. Your answer clearly expresses that it is very difficult to apply.

I yield the rest of my time to my colleague Mr. Falk.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Lehoux, and thank you to all our witnesses for coming.

I am going to talk to the Agriculture Carbon Alliance folks a little bit here.

When the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act was adopted for whatever reason, there was a specific carve-out for diesel and gas for agriculture. I think it was a recognition of the importance that we as Canadians place on our food supply, on our food chain, on agriculture and on the important work that farmers do.

We know that for whatever reason, there was an omission, whether intentional or inadvertent. A sector of our farm community was not included, and that includes the folks growing livestock and also the people irrigating their fields and drying their grain.

I live in Manitoba. It gets to -35°C below there. I know that a broiler farmer empties out his barn every five weeks, and it sits empty. He washes it. He cleans it. He disinfects it, and he gets ready for the next batch. When those chicks come in there on day 1, do you know the temperature that the barn needs to be?

[Dave Carey]

I assume it would be sufficiently warm, or cool.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

It has to be 95° Fahrenheit for the first week.

You've already addressed this point, but I want to make sure that we're all on the same page here. Is there a fuel source other than propane or natural gas that can accomplish that in an efficient manner?

[Scott Ross]

Not that is widely available or economically viable right now.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Okay.

I would like to think that our farmers are smart. I know lots of them, and I don't know of one farmer, at least in my riding, who unnecessarily spends money on fuel. They're best-practices producers, and I think your support of this bill is very admirable.

When I look at the numbers that you've indicated here, I see that as a conglomeration, you represent over 200,000 producers. I think your voice is loud and clear that this is a bill you want to see move forward. Have I interpreted that correctly?

[Dave Carey]

Absolutely. I can say that in the ACA, it is also the first time we've ever actually brought every segment of agriculture primary production together. Supply management, export-oriented grains and oilseed, dairy, poultry—all are in support of this bill. It does have varying degrees of impact depending on which of those commodities you're in, but there's a recognition across every one of those organizations—and that's included in our letter of support—that this is a key policy principle and a key tool for economic viability and environmental viability on a farm.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I think I'm pretty much done here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Falk.

Certainly the member of Parliament for Guelph, which we know has a lot of agriculture, is no stranger to the agriculture committee. Mr. Longfield, it's good to see you. You have five minutes, my friend.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. It's good to be back on AGRI and to see a lot of familiar faces around the table as well.

I want to start with Agriculture Carbon Alliance and possibly move on to the other witnesses. Thank you all for being here.

I visited a farm in Listowel, not too far from Guelph, where a woman created a small business around using a press to take the oil from oilseeds. She has converted her diesel using an add-on to her injection system, which she buys from Switzerland, to create electricity using the biodiesel that she gets from the oilseeds. She takes the dry seeds and makes what she calls “nutrigrain bars for cattle,” a very high-protein, high-density feed for cattle. She also uses the oil to feed boilers, and she also takes some of her hydraulic oil and other oil to heat the barns.

She created a business around making her farm more sustainable and is now selling those solutions to other farms around her. Have you looked at the small business opportunities that pricing signals give the market?

[Scott Ross]

I can't speak to that specific technology or that specific example, but in considering that story, I think one of the important elements is that many of those investments were probably made a number of years ago, setting the stage for that plan.

Fuel prices right now for farmers on diesel, or whatever it may be, are the number one concern we hear about from our farmers every day. I think those business opportunities would exist in the absence of that specific carbon pricing signal in these areas because there is still an absolute need to reduce fuel use wherever possible.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

The company's name is Energrow. You can look them up.

In the larger context, I'm wondering whether your association works in other countries or has associations with other associations in other countries that have had high fuel costs, higher than in North America.

I'm looking at the RIELA stationary dryer system from Germany. It's a two-scale system. It does 120 tonnes per hour for grain, with 4% moisture removal, and up to 18 tonnes per hour for maize, with 20% moisture removal. It's a scaled system that looks like it could be put on any feed lot or any silo system anywhere in Canada.

Germany seems to have some technology they've developed. I've heard the argument today that there are no other technologies out there, but they're using biofuels to do the drying.

There's another one in England, Alvan Blanch from the U.K., that's using airflow systems that were mentioned in the last panel.

Then in Saskatchewan we have Assié dry air grain drying using finished alfalfa pellets for seven to 10 tonnes per hour. That's a little bit less volume, but it's still viable for many farms.

How do we tie the innovations in other countries into Canadian innovations that could then look at the price signals the market is getting, indicating that there's actually an economic opportunity here?

[Dave Carey]

I think those are excellent examples of where we are going. The example in Listowel is a great example of "What works for your farm, works for your farm". I would suspect that this farm is not a major size in acreage.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

A lot of farms around her are 200-acre farms, and in Ontario that's.... I'm from Manitoba, so I know that 10,000 acres isn't uncommon on the Prairies.

[Dave Carey]

It's fantastic to hear about this technology. I would hope that if it were viable for Canada, the wait-list wouldn't be too long, because currently farmers can't buy new technology because there is no supply of it.

In Canada, most farmers who have a grain dryer have done as many upgrades as they possibly can. We saw the $50 million announced for grain dryers. There are approximately 50,000 grain dryers across Canada. The average grain dryer is $100,000 pre-cement in the Prairies, so that entire thing could do about 500 grain dryers. There's also just a lot of infrastructure already in place. For farmers to invest in that, they need the money in their hands, or support from government.

There's also no one size that fits all. If these work for their farm, farmers will go that route if they have the economic means to do so.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

We have capital cost allowances for people who are investing in clean technologies. We do have other programs that are available. When I hear numbers like that, I just see opportunity in terms of helping the farmers as well as helping Canadian business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Longfield.

Thank you, Mr. Carey and Mr. Ross.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Guénette, is the exemption for heating buildings as important as the exemption for drying grain?

[Jasmin Guénette]

Could you answer this question, Ms. Brown?

[Taylor Brown, Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Federation of Independent Business]

For sure, if English is okay.

I think they're both absolutely necessary for farmers, especially right now. We've heard that they need this really badly. Of course we need that grain-drying focus. I hear every single day from farmers who are so stressed and angry that they're asking me, "What's going on with this bill?. When is this going to pass?", etc.

I think the primary focus is on grain drying, as we are in the season, but definitely heating of buildings is very important.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Brown.

I would like to hear the views of Mr. Carey and Mr. Ross on the same issue.

Is the exemption for heating buildings as essential as the exemption for drying grain?

[Scott Ross]

It's not an easy question to answer, in that livestock farmers are competing with other livestock farmers around the world. They are in global markets, and competitiveness is front and centre just as much as it is for a grain operation.

For both of those industries, this is a critical issue. I think the reality is that in many instances, our producers are competing in markets with jurisdictions that don't have a carbon pricing pressure on their competitiveness and profitability. When engaging our members, it's one of those commodities referenced by our membership. We hear that it's a critical issue for all of them in their own respective areas.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I'll repeat the question I asked at the end of the previous round and you'll have 20 seconds to answer me.

In the event that we vote for the exemption, what could we do to maintain the message that pollution needs to be reduced?

[Dave Carey]

On farm, I'd say the pricing signal is there.

To be clear, even if Bill C-234 were passed, farmers are not made whole from carbon pricing. The second carbon pricing goes up, every year the cost of custom-haul trucking, freight, their inputs and the rest of their day-to-day expenses go up. We're simply asking for an exemption for on-farm food production.

The pricing signal, we feel, is already there. Farmers are not using inputs unless they have to. It is simply too expensive. The costs that we face as suburban or urban Canadians are nothing compared to what a 6,000-acre farm in Saskatchewan faces.

The price signal is philosophically very important for this regime. Farmers are already facing that. This is about just food production, not the rest of their lives outside of primary food production on farm.