Agriculture Committee on Nov. 16th, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I want to get one last question in.

[Charles Stevens]

I'm done on that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Dr. Fakhri, I'd like to turn my last question to you. You mentioned that the war in Ukraine and the pandemic exacerbated long-standing structural problems with the international food system.

I'm curious to hear from you, because you work for the biggest international organization there is, but two of its member states are actively at war with each other. It must be a bit awkward in the workplace at times.

Could you fill us in on what that is like, when you have a permanent member of the Security Council engaged in a pretty brutal war right now?

[Dr. Michael Fakhri]

Thank you for your question.

To clarify, I am an independent expert. It's a volunteer position. I'm one of the few players in these rooms, at times, who can speak freely. What I don't have in resources, I have in freedom.

I have been invited to brief the Security Council. When I brief the Security Council, I'm pleased to report that both the Russian ambassador and the American ambassador said that my remarks were fair and frank.

To your point, the problem I find with the United States and Russia is that they enter all of these multilateral spaces—I've been to the Security Council and the General Assembly, and the list goes on—and the one thing they always agree on is to not work multilaterally and to not commit to human rights. This is even though they're enemies, they're at war and they're destabilizing everything.

Internationally, I look for leadership and for someone to come forward and push in these multilateral spaces for an international kind of coordination and co-operation. Canada in the past has played a role. I think it was an honest broker in the past. I think it can play a role today. I haven't seen that in these spaces.

I want to invite the Government of Canada to step up its international role and bring people together on international co-operation and coordination.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Fakhri.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We now have Mr. Steinley for up to five minutes.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

My first question will be for Mr. Hemmes.

One of the security issues I see is the supply chain. Can you talk about how interchanging would be really important in making sure that we can get our commodities to market? Would interchanging play a big role in that?

That's one of the recommendations that came from the supply chain task force.

[Mark Hemmes]

I think the one thing about interchanging and the recommendation of the supply chain task force is that it's really focused on the movement of goods into the United States and Mexico. That doesn't address the global food insecurity issue. It certainly reduces costs, because now you're talking about having options of using different carriers, rather than being locked into the rail carrier that serves you.

There was an experiment a number of years ago that went on for three years. It was called “extended interswitching”. In its last year of operation, it saved probably close to $15 million or $20 million in rail freight costs for the people who used it, so—

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

That's perfect. Thank you very much.

I have five minutes, and I have a few more questions. Thank you very much, Mark.

My next question will be for Mr. Carey.

The PMRA has about 60 products that need to be reviewed. If those reviews aren't done, what could be the effect on the food supply in our country?

[Dave Carey]

Thanks for the question.

We represent Canada's 43,000 canola farmers who rely on PMRA. PMRA has been under-resourced and understaffed for years. Part of our calls have been on that.

The concern we have.... In direct response to your question, we look at their workload increasing and the special reviews that are triggered any time a Codex country makes a decision on a unit. We are concerned that bad decisions will be made because they're rushed, they're under pressure and they don't have the resources.

It's a huge concern, because crop protection products are among the most important things to food security and modern agriculture.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Carey. I appreciate that.

We've heard some interesting testimony today.

I would like to ask a question of you. You represent 43,000 producers. That's a lot of producers who have on-the-ground knowledge of our agriculture sector.

Through innovation and technology—like you talked about—with zero till, direct seeding and crop rotation, do you believe that the agriculture soil in Canada is in better health now than it would have been 15 or 20 years ago?

[Dave Carey]

Absolutely. There's just no question about it.

The amount of organic matter that's allowed to be built up in soil because we're not tilling it, because we're not having to get rid of all of those weeds, because we have genetically modified crops that are herbicide-tolerant, because we have products like glyphosate, saves huge amounts of GHG emissions and also allows farmers to plant directly into the soil.

The notion that the American farmer you see in a gothic painting was sustainable is simply not true. Agriculture on farm has never been more sustainable. Producers want to do the best thing. I think trying to identify good and bad producers is unproductive, but I think Canada's agriculture and farmers are directly tied to the land. They have their money. They're tied to land succession. Their money is tied to land.

So, yes, with on-farm sustainability and soil health, there is a continuum, and we need to improve that, but it's never been better, in large part due to crop protection products, biotechnology when we look at gene editing, as well as access to fertilizer.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

I think the idea of trying to portray agriculture as corporate farms isn't helpful now. I know that the average farm size in Saskatchewan is about 1,300 acres. It still is a lot of people. They grew up on that farm and they protect the environment and the soil because it's important to them, not only for their bottom line, but also to pass this on to the next generation.

I just want to get on the record that I think our agriculture producers are doing an amazing job, and I think anyone who wants to talk them down is heading in the wrong direction. Agriculture emissions in Canada, as part of our total emissions, are at 8%. That should be something the world should strive for. We are the gold standard when it comes to environmental sustainability and agriculture, and it's something we should be very proud of as a country and very proud of as a government. I think everyone else in the world is around 26% for emissions from their agriculture sector. We are a leader, and we should be very proud of that.

Thank you very much for being here today.

[Dave Carey]

Ninety-five per cent of Canadian farms are family-run businesses. Farms do get bigger, because you need scalability. It's very expensive to buy this. You can't have a bunch of 100-acre farms with a combine in each one.

On the intensity in agriculture emissions, we've been at about 8% for the last 20 years, but we've increased the amount that we're producing with those same emissions by 50%.

I think I agree with you that we're on the right track out here.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Carey.

Thank you, Mr. Steinley.

We'll now turn to Ms. Taylor Roy for up to five minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to leave some time for Mr. El-Khoury, who would also like to have a question.

I just want to say that I worked on a farm in the Holland Marsh growing up. I was pulling carrots and lettuce, and I know it's changed. What we're producing now has changed because of trade and what we're competitive in.

You talked a little bit about international standards and how we do things in Canada and need to be competitive. My concern is that if we go with the lowest common denominator.... I mean, food safety and security in Canada has always been excellent. Our food is high-quality. I guess there are two ways to go. One is to say, “Well, we shouldn't make improvements. We shouldn't be the best we can in terms of that, because we're competing with countries that don't do that.” The other is to say something that we heard the special envoy from New Zealand say, which is that we actually have a superior product.

Now, especially in the fruit and vegetable sector, Mr. Stevens, we have a superior product in Canada in terms of how it's grown, our food safety, our standards and everything, and we should be able to market it that way. It's different in commodity crops—I understand.

One thing I'm wondering about is growing this food and trade, but let me revert a bit, because what I really wanted to talk about was the land.

We need labour, but we need land and we need good soil. In Ontario, in particular, I think those two things are at risk. We have farms in my riding of Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill that are disappearing—farm land. Some of the owners want the land rezoned and they're saying that the soil quality is terrible now after years and years of farming.

Soil health, obviously, and having the land are two important things. What would you say to that, Mr. Stevens, in the context of Ontario and what's going on?

[Charles Stevens]

Thank you for asking the question. That's a great question.

I believe that in 100 years there will be no agriculture left in Ontario. Statistics Canada did an agriculture census back in 2016. At that time, 175 acres were being taken out of production every day due to development and housing. In 2021, the agriculture census, which is every five years, put it at 319 acres a day. Divide that into the agricultural land—not just fruit and vegetables, but all across it—and we're out of production in 100 years.

I know land policy is provincial, somewhat—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes, so what can the feds do? I just want to intervene to ask about the solution. What can we do to help that?

[Charles Stevens]

We need better land use policies to save the number one, two, three and four agriculture lands, which a farmer can make a living on; but the five, six, and seven, which he cannot make a living on, maybe that's where we need to put the houses. I know it's a pull-and-shove here. We need housing.

I was talking to Doug Ford the other day. He said, “We're going to support agriculture.” Then he turns around and says, “We're going to open up the greenbelts to build more houses.” It's a crisis.

We won't need crop protection materials, and we won't need labour. Those are the two key ones for the horticulture industry. Also, we have water. We have a quarter of the world's fresh water right on our doorstep, and we have the climate.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you so much. Yes, I think it is a concern.

I just want to make sure that Mr. El-Khoury has the chance to ask a question as well, but thank you for that.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

My question is for Mr. Fakhri.

In your opinion, how could Canada become a world leader in establishing the right to food in the international community?

In your research and studies, have you considered the impact of climate change on the agriculture sector?

Finally, what do you think about paradigm shifts from food security to food sovereignty in order to remove the influence of those cartels that have an influence on the food sector?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Fakhri, we only have about 15 or 20 seconds, but I'm going to give you a little bit more time. I might shave off the third round just to be fair, but I want Mr. El-Khoury to have this question, so it's over to you.

[Dr. Michael Fakhri]

Thank you, Mr. El‑Khoury.

What can Canada do? At the UN Committee on World Food Security in Rome, it can play a leadership role and bring countries together. We're all pushing now in Rome over the next few months at the Committee on World Food Security for it to be the place for governments to come together and negotiate an international plan.

Canada can play a leadership role. It's been impassive. It's been at the back. It can step up.

To your point on the effect of climate change, the problem with corporatization isn't specifically farmers or family farmers; it's who owns the seeds—GMO seeds are corporate-owned, reducing biodiversity—and who owns the input—fertilizers and other inputs are also dominated by corporations. To achieve food sovereignty, to put the power back into the hands of producers, consumers and everyday people, we need a resilient system that supports the small producers, the family farms, and puts power back in their hands. Seeds should not be corporate-owned. Seeds are life. By patenting seeds and relying on genetically modified organisms, we're putting our lives in the hands of corporations and not in the hands of farmers.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much.

We will continue with Mr. Perron.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Stevens, you talked about financial protection for perishable fruit and vegetables. I imagine you have examined the matter thoroughly. You said 20 years.

In your opinion, why is there no such financial protection since it costs the government nothing and would be of considerable assistance to you?

You also talked about labour and a major problem relating to temporary foreign workers. Do you have any specific recommendations for the committee that we might pass on to the government?

If you don't have any recommendations right now, can you forward them to the committee later on?