Agriculture Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hetherington and Ms. Nikkel, I would like a quick response from both of you: What do you think about the fact that the old age security pension only goes up at age 75 instead of age 65?

Do you feel that increasing it at age 65 would be part of the solution for seniors, and would that make them more food secure?

[Neil Hetherington]

I'm not an expert on that, to be fair.

I know there were tremendous benefits when the guaranteed income supplement for seniors came into play. Any time we have the opportunity to increase their income or decrease their expenses through decent, affordable housing for seniors, then I know it's a good thing.

I'm sorry, but I'm not an expert on that.

[Lori Nikkel]

I'm with Neil on that.

Any time we can increase anybody's funding, the better.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Chief Louis, I'd like to begin by thanking you for being with us.

You're talking about the situation of first nations in particular. Several years ago, I visited a community in northern Yukon and found that food prices there were unreasonably higher than in southern Yukon.

I'd like you to share your proposed solutions with us. You have an opportunity today to make concrete proposals to the government for us to include in our report. What would be your top recommendations, if you were to pick one or two?

[Chief Byron Louis]

I would say that Canada should support the development of first nations-led initiatives to address food insecurity, including strategies to build first nations resilience against the impacts of food-price inflation. It should include enhanced infrastructure, investments to strengthen first nations economic development, and improved access to healthy food.

In essence, what we are asking is this. How can we actually build sustainable communities, and what is actually available? In other parts of the world they use multi-impact area developments. There are those with the USDA and others, including the Aga Khan Foundation in Pakistan. We all know that when we measure impacts for first nations, we're considered Fourth World in terms of development. In those instances they look at not just a single support but rather multiple supports coming in from different federal agencies and others to address the problems of generating sustainable communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Chief Louis and Mr. Perron.

Mr. MacGregor now has the floor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for joining our committee today and for helping us study this very important topic.

Mr. Hetherington, I'd like to start with you.

The figures you've presented to our committee we are all somewhat familiar with, but to hear you repeat them in such a concise and ordered way is a very damning indictment of the state of our country and what too many Canadians are going through on a day-to-day basis.

I was especially struck by the figures you relayed to us that showed the increase in the number of Canadians who have full-time employment but who are relying on food banks to make it through month by month. If there is a more damning indictment of the state of our economy than the fact that someone is working full time and trying their best to make as much income as they can but they're still reliant on food banks, I don't know what it is. When you compare that with some of the profits that are being felt in some segments, that's quite a damning indictment.

You mentioned several times during your opening statement the concept of a right to food. In Canada of course we have our rights enshrined in the charter. One of my colleagues is attempting to bring legislation to the House on enshrining a right to a healthy environment. When you talk about a right to food, you've given some examples in terms of policy and through income supports about how we could support people, but do you ever see this right to food being enshrined in legislation? Has that ever been something you've discussed? Could you expand on that topic a bit?

[Neil Hetherington]

I absolutely do. We've already signed up for that. Canada signed article 25 of the United Nations...to declare that we subscribe to a right to food. We believe everybody should have the means to feed themselves with culturally appropriate foods that meet the requirements of the individual. We have already subscribed to it. The question is, how do we live up to the commitment we already put our name to?

To your earlier point about where the economy and food bank usage are, I want to make it very clear to this committee that things are upside down. It does not make sense that unemployment is as low as it is and food bank usage is as high as it is. This is the very first time, in the 40 years that food banks have been in Canada, that we have seen unemployment so low and food bank usage at the rates we're seeing right now.

You didn't ask me this question, but I'm going to answer it: What keeps me up at night? The answer is, if things go south when it comes to unemployment rates in Canada, what we at Daily Bread will face is monumental—an extraordinary challenge. We're already at a breaking point.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that. I appreciate the addition you provided to this committee.

Ms. Nikkel, I'd like to turn to you and Second Harvest Canada.

Welcome back to our committee. We've always valued your testimony before this body.

In your opening statement, you talked about how, because of the high price of food, families are increasingly turning to cheaper items at the supermarket—to more heavily processed foods that are not as high in nutritional value as, say, the foods around the outside edges of supermarkets, where your fresh fruits and vegetables, dairy and meats are. They are instead going to processed foods. I think it's very important that you add a bit more than what your opening statement allowed for.

What are the long-term consequences of that lower nutritional uptake by families? What does that do to the developing child's brain, for instance?

We need to understand this, as a committee. There will be longer-term impacts from this on our health care system...not only personally and socially but also economically, in terms of the number of health care dollars we may have to spend as a result of not tackling this initially.

[Lori Nikkel]

You're right. This should be prevention. Feeding people is prevention. We're all going to pay for it, in the end. The research is very clear. The health outcomes of children are very negative. We know they have lower educational outcomes in math and English—in all subjects. They can't concentrate. It's very simple. Think about when you're hungry. You become “hangry”. You can't focus. That's what's happening to families. They can't focus, because they don't have the nutrition in their brains to focus. You need that to make good decisions as well.

There's a domino effect when all you're accessing is terrible food. To Neil's point, when all you have is eight dollars, you can't buy broccoli, carrots or milk, because these are risks. You're not sure whether your kids will eat them, so you're not going to buy them. You're going to buy what you know all your kids will eat. It's a risk. Who thinks buying milk is a risk, in their own budget at home? Nobody here thinks that, but it is a risk for many people. They cannot purchase healthy food, because their kids won't eat it and they have only eight dollars.

We know the health outcomes. We're seeing them already. We see that type 2 diabetes and heart disease have increased. Strokes and cancer are increasing. A lot of this is food-related. Get the right diet into families and our health dollars will be less.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Ms. Nikkel, and thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Colleagues, we've run a bit long, but I want to get to a second round of questions. I'm going to tighten it. We'll go three minutes for the Conservatives and Liberals. I would respectfully ask that there be a reasonable question from the Bloc and NDP, or two quick questions, then we'll wrap up—a minute and a half or two minutes for the third and fourth parties.

Mr. Epp, you have three minutes.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for their good work.

I'm fortunate enough to live in the 42nd parallel, with a lot of greenhouses. I have access to fresh fruits and vegetables virtually year-round, summer root crops, etc.

I'm going to start with Mr. Louis.

Members in our community have partnered with a first nation—the Prince Albert Grand Council—and have experimented with and shipped fresh fruits and vegetables, to the gratitude of that band.

Can you speak to the access, in general, that first nations communities have? The fresh fruits and vegetables tend not to be as dense a product, when you're talking about six-dollar freight. Can you talk about the impact of nutritious food and first nations?

[Chief Byron Louis]

For the majority you start looking at the fixed incomes of first nations that a lot of the people experience, and how that erodes buying power based upon a 9% increase in inflation and food costs. Even for first nations that are down in the lower 250 kilometres from the Canada-U.S. border, our ability to access traditional foods is impacted in the case of anywhere from 70% to 90% of our traditional foods. If you live in the north and you're used to consuming six to nine caribou per year at 300 pounds per caribou, that's anywhere from 1,800 to 2,700 pounds. What happens if you can't access that? Where do you get that from?

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Chief. I apologize for cutting you off, but my time is so very short.

Mr. Hetherington, a statement you made struck me.

Poverty rates have declined, yet we heard from your testimony that the amount of food bank use is up and through the roof. The typical disposable income for food in Canada has been 9%. It's up to 14%.

You talked about the statistics of housing and whatever else that takes, particularly out of people with lower income levels. Previous testimony to this committee said that basically the food insecurity issue is part of the much larger cost of living issue. You've alluded to that in your testimony. It's an income issue. Can you expand on that jarring dichotomy of poverty rates and food insecurity?

[Neil Hetherington]

To be clear, the poverty rates I cited were prepandemic numbers, as they started to decline. The new numbers are going to be grim. That's the first thing.

In terms of squaring the two, earlier what I said in response to the previous question was that I am quite concerned about the future. I am quite concerned about the state of the economy, with unemployment being as low as it is right now and food bank usage being as high as it is.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

I'm out of time for my questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Epp, and thank you for giving back those 10 seconds.

Ms. Valdez, it's over to you for up to three minutes.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us in this committee.

Ms. Nikkel, welcome back.

Since the largest portion of food waste is biodegradable, what are some of the ways in which we can effectively reduce or reuse this waste?

[Lori Nikkel]

First, I would like to argue for prevention, to be honest. We should prevent it from happening at all. I really do love that there's a lot of upcycling going on, and there are economic drivers for upcycling, which is really great.

Again, I'm going to go back to mandating measurement: If we mandate measurement with businesses, they will find innovative ways to manage their food waste.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Hetherington, earlier you referred to the Canada disability act. Can you elaborate on how this will help those who rely on the Daily Bread Food Bank, whether that's financial or otherwise, in terms of benefits?

[Neil Hetherington]

Well, if you are on disability in the province of Ontario, you're receiving $1,229 per month. The poverty line is $2,100. Every single month, every single person who's on disability is legislated to be in poverty.

That's fundamentally wrong. There is a $900 delta. My hope is that the federal government will take a leadership position and say, through the act and the regulations that will follow, that we can make a fundamental difference.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

My last question is for Chief Byron Louis.

You mentioned in your opening that you're less able to feed yourselves on reserve. Can you comment on the supply chain option and what that looks like for first nations?

[Chief Byron Louis]

The comment I made about access to foods was on the loss of our traditional diet and on how it actually subsidized the low incomes of our people. It was mentioned earlier on about $2,100 being poverty. I think it's around $2,200 for first nations. When you take away that ability to access traditional foods, you take away the ability to provide nutritious proteins. That is a very serious problem.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

I think that's my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Ms. Valdez. Yes, we're very close to time.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for 90 seconds to two minutes.