Agriculture Committee on Oct. 5th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you, Mr. Roy.

Thanks, Mr. MacGregor, for your questions.

We're almost out of time, but I do want to try to get in a second round. Probably only the Conservatives and the Liberals will get maybe three minutes each, and then we'll go to the Bloc and the NDP for perhaps one question. We can maybe try to fit that in.

I'll go to Mr. Steinley for three minutes, please.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ray, thank you very much for all that your family does. We're proud of you guys for keeping on farming. We're very supportive of what you guys do out there.

I have one question after what happened with the occupation. What is your concern of foot-and-mouth now that the disease was brought into your farm? What biosecurity measures did you have to take after the occupation on your farm to clean it up?

[Ray Binnendyk]

When it came to our place, as we said, they snuck in at night and put cameras in. One day 50 of them made it into the barn. That was definitely a sight to see. When I saw my whole barn lined with that many people, I was thinking to myself, “What could happen here?”

I mean, we were fortunate enough to not see much stuff happen to the sows. Afterwards, yes, we had a number of issues, but to be able to pinpoint it on those people.... It's very, very likely, obviously, because that doesn't normally happen. There are not many people who come onto our place.

At the end of the day, we did all right. The pigs seemed to be fine, but it could have been totally different.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much. I'm really sorry your family had to go through that. I'm glad you could come together and have support within your family.

I have a question for Ms. Rastogi. In your opening comments, or with Mr. MacDonald, you painted a picture of large animal farming with hundreds of thousands of animals on a farm. I think you're trying to get at some “Farm, Inc.” thing.

I have some numbers from Saskatchewan of the total number of beef cows and the number of animals they have on a farm. For farms with one to seven beef cows, there are 1,298. For farms with eight to 17 cows, there are 1,781. For farms with 18 to 47 cows, there are 3,305. For farms with 48 to 77 cows, there are 1,864. For farms with 78 to 122 cows, there are 1,686.

My question is.... The vast majority of farms across this country are family farms. They're not big industrial farms. Why would you misrepresent that in committee today to try to make a point?

[Dr. Toolika Rastogi]

Thank you for the question.

It's not my intention to misrepresent anything. I am actually a scientist, so when you give me numbers without reference to what's specifically being looked at, it's very difficult for me to comment.

That being said—

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

That's easy. It's from the Saskatchewan Stock Growers Association, and it's the number of animals on beef farms in Saskatchewan as of 2021.

[Dr. Toolika Rastogi]

Right, but then you listed.... Anyway....

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

It's the number of animals on a farm and the number of farms that have those animals.

[Dr. Toolika Rastogi]

Absolutely, and one also needs context in order to interpret the meaning of that. I hear your point, though.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

You have 10 seconds left, so if you want her to answer, you'd better let her.

[Dr. Toolika Rastogi]

I'm not trying to misrepresent.... There has been a growth in the size of animal production facilities in this country. The decreasing number of family farms as referenced in B.C. is a prime example, perhaps, of smaller numbers and larger operations.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. Taylor Roy for three minutes, please.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the farmers and the farm representatives who are here today.

I'd like to start first by thanking Ray for the farming he's doing. My grandfather was a farmer. My Dutch grandfather, Andres Posthumus, came over and farmed, and I spent a lot of time on farms. My uncles and my cousins are farmers. I want to make sure that people understand that we all appreciate what farmers are doing in Canada. We appreciate what you're doing.

I understand that your farm actually has 12,000 to 14,000 animals on it, from the testimony you gave in the court, so I'm assuming yours is one of those larger farms. That's great, and thank you for doing that.

Thank you, Dr. Rastogi, for clarifying that Humane Canada and SPCAs work for the welfare and protection of animals and do not advocate for an end to animal farming, because it's been misrepresented in this committee several times that we all want to end animal farming. Clearly that's not the case.

Thank you also for emphasizing that the distrust is not in farmers but in the system of agriculture. I think we all know the majority of farmers are good and that they care about their animals, but as in any industry, there are a few bad actors.

My question is whether you think this legislation will increase public trust in the system. Ray mentioned that he has a hard time talking about being a farmer now because people are looking at him askance.

Do you think this legislation is going to help people have trust in what's happening in the system, or do you think it's going to do the opposite?

[Dr. Toolika Rastogi]

Thank you for the question.

I think it is going to do the opposite, because it gives the impression of further decreasing the tools that are available that my colleague Ms. Martellani spoke about. We need more tools in order to be able to show what is actually happening on farms. This bill does the opposite.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Go ahead, Mr. Carr.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I don't have time for a question, so I wanted to make a piece of commentary. I am very concerned about the growing divide in this country between rural and urban. I think we are hearing it in some of the testimony. It's not by nature an “urban versus rural” issue only, but it tends to break down along those lines.

I want to encourage all of us in the context of this debate to be mindful—this isn't aimed at anyone in particular—of our hyperbole when we're talking about these issues. I think we have a tendency sometimes to go to the extreme of the spectrum on both sides of any particular issue in this place. I, at least, in my line of questioning, am really trying to get to the middle ground where there's a bit of truth.

I think we have to be mindful of this growing divide in our country, and I say that as someone who comes from the west but represents an urban riding. In lieu of a question, I simply wanted to end with that particularly important sentiment, in my view.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thanks, Mr. Carr.

I know Mr. MacGregor doesn't have any questions.

Mr. Perron, do you have a quick one that will fit in?

Go ahead, please.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to take this opportunity to give the floor to Mr. Gobeil to answer my previous question, which was about the mental health of its members.

I also invite him to make any other comments, if he wishes.

[Daniel Gobeil]

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

There has been talk of reducing tools. For us, a tool such as the one that allows someone to go to the production site, where our families, children and grandchildren work and where we are during the day, does not promote a balance in terms of mental health and animal welfare.

Lots of people come to the farms: veterinarians, input suppliers, equipment vendors, representatives from the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food and representatives from the Department of the Environment.

Be assured that all these people are in a position to denounce cases of mistreatment. According to the ProAction program, there must be a visit at least every two years. Sometimes it's every year. These visits are precisely to ensure the well-being of the animals and to report abuse.

Industry people want to feed the population. We want to continue to produce food for consumers. Obviously, there is no tolerance for abuse. We don't need a tool like this to do the job of monitoring and ensuring transparency.

The industry is willing to be more transparent, but the solution is not intrusion by whistleblowers or...

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Barlow]

Thank you for your response, Mr. Gobeil.

Thank you, colleagues.

There are couple of reminders before we head out.

The amendments for Bill C-275 need to be in by the end of the day on October 11. Keep that in mind. We'll be doing clause-by-clause study on Monday, October 16.

If anybody has any travel plans or ideas for this committee, please have them to us by November 10. Is that okay, colleagues?

Thank you very much to our witnesses for being here with us today and for your testimony. It's certainly much appreciated to have your insights.

We are adjourned.