Agriculture Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 78 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri‑food.

I will start with a few reminders. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee. In addition, screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted during the meeting.

Good morning to all my colleagues.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses.

First of all, today, on behalf of the Canadian Cattle Association, we have Jack Chaffe, officer at large. It's very good to see you here in the room. We also have Ryder Lee, general manager. Ryder, it's nice to see you again and thanks for being here before our committee.

From the Canadian Pork Council, we have René Roy, who is the chair. It's great to see you, René. We have Eric Schwindt, who is also part of the board and the group. It is great to see you here.

From the National Cattle Feeders' Association, we have Cathy Jo Noble, vice-president. It's lovely to see you again, Ms. Noble. Also, David Fehr is joining us by video conference. He is the chief financial officer of Van Raay Paskal Farms Limited. It's very nice to see you. Thank you for joining in virtually.

The way we do this, folks, is that we have five minutes for opening remarks, and then we'll turn it over to our members for questions.

Again, thank you for being here today on an important subject.

I'm going to start with the Canadian Cattle Association.

I'll turn it over to you, Mr. Chaffe or Mr. Lee.

[Jack Chaffe, Officer at Large, Canadian Cattle Association]

Good morning, Mr. Chair, Vice-Chair and members. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you.

My name is Jack Chaffe. I'm a cattle feeder and grain farmer from southwestern Ontario in the Stratford-Mitchell area. I am president of the Beef Farmers of Ontario and an officer with the Canadian Cattle Association. With me today is Ryder Lee, the general manager of the Canadian Cattle Association.

I'm used to appearances before parliamentary committees pending legislation. This makes this appearance a new one for me, as we are discussing the regulation and its implementation.

I do not think there is a wide gap between what happens on the road and what Transport Canada expects in the regulation. However, from time to time, there are gaps. There are maximum times drivers can be on the road operating commercial vehicles. This applies to livestock haulers. The regulations we're discussing here today are mostly for interprovincial loads. If a driver stays within their provincial boundaries, these limitations generally do not apply, or, more fairly, it's up to the provincial regulators to enforce the federal status in those situations.

Cattle being hauled in Canada are subject to the Health of Animals Act, regulations allowing time in transit, and other requirements about that transit. I want to be clear: This is not why we are here today, but it is very important. Cattle shippers, haulers and receivers, farmers, ranchers and feeders like myself all have the health of cattle top of mind before the animals are sorted and evaluated for fitness for their trip, and then during and after the trip.

We must also be mindful of the safety of the vehicle, its driver and others on the road. This is what brings us here today. Our industry has a great record on road and animal safety, and we are not pushing for regulatory change. What we're asking for is clear language on a specific aspect that comes into play from time to time: vehicle problems, road closures, accidents and those kinds of unforeseeable events. What happens when a driver's service hours run out, but the live cargo or cattle have not been delivered? Quite often, they continue on to their destination. Generally, what happens is that the driver finishes the trip, because it is the best thing for the cargo they're carrying. What about the rules, though? Now they are offside. What are the repercussions going to be?

That can go two ways. One, which worries us, is that they are fined or otherwise disciplined for doing the right thing for the animals. That is how the regulation reads to us. The other way it can go is that they can be shielded from enforcement because of language under subsection 76(1). It reads:

The requirements of these Regulations in respect of driving time, on-duty time and off-duty time do not apply to a driver who, in an emergency, requires more driving time to reach a destination that provides safety for the occupants of the commercial vehicle and for other users of the road or the security of the commercial vehicle and its load.

We, along with other livestock colleagues, have been asking Transport Canada to clearly spell out that animal welfare concern is an emergency, as mentioned.

Again, we believe this regulation—if it reads the way we think it should—could benefit from clearer interpretation and guidance, including on livestock considerations. Guidance like this is not a new tool for government. We ask for clarification so the enforcement people are not asked to decide. What we've seen in the past with regulations policy drafted in Ottawa is that it's enacted in different ways across the country. We want to avoid this in the future.

Finally, I would like to point out that the U.S. has found a way to manage this flexibility by providing a sleeve where start and finish times do not apply when they're on the clock. Aligning with this would be a positive development, but we are told it would need legislative change, not regulatory change.

Today, we are looking for immediate clarification on the current regulations to ensure the continued safety of both transporters and livestock.

Thank you for your ongoing support of Canadian agriculture.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chaffe.

Colleagues, it must have been the early morning, and I didn't have my coffee yet. I just wanted to recognize that, of course, the committee is meeting pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, October 19, 2023. We are commencing our study on the electronic logging device requirements and animal transport. This is just in case any Canadians watching at home didn't know exactly what we were studying.

I also want to recognize you, Mr. Shields. You're subbing in for Ms. Rood. It's great to have you back on the committee from time to time.

Okay, we'll go to the Canadian Pork Council for up to five minutes.

It's over to you.

[René Roy, Chair, Canadian Pork Council]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the invitation.

Thank you as well to the committee members for your work on this issue.

My name is René Roy, and I am the chair of the Canadian Pork Council. Joining me this morning is Eric Schwindt, a member of the Canadian Pork Council board of directors and a producer from Ontario.

We are eager to offer our counsel to the committee on this file for two reasons.

On the one hand, we understand how important regulations are to this part of our industry. We take the welfare of animals seriously when it comes to transportation issues, and we have been actively engaged with every process looking at how we can make this part of our industry safer and more secure.

On the other hand, this is a case where rigid regulations can have a negative impact on the very animals we have been trying to protect. Transportation is stressful on the animals, and a rigid limit on driver hours can mean pigs will have to be unloaded or stopped 30 minutes or an hour from their destination, increasing their stress and causing them needless complications.

We are not seeking an exemption from hours of service requirements or from electronic logging devices. Instead, we are simply asking for flexibility in enforcement in unforeseen circumstances and clear communication of said flexibility.

Currently, drivers are put in a difficult situation of either complying with hours of service regulations or doing what they know is best for the welfare of the animals in their care, which is getting them to their destination as quickly and as safely as possible. Live haul drivers, unlike freight drivers, cannot simply pull into a rest area or go off duty if they unexpectedly cannot get to their destination and/or unload within their hours of service.

Most animal trailers are passively ventilated, which means that the load cannot remain stationary for a prolonged period of time. It must be kept moving to attain maximum airflow and temperature control to ensure the safety of animals.

Ideally, we would like to align with or have a similar system as the United States, where livestock haulers are provided, in unforeseen circumstances, an exemption for hours of service within a radius of 150 air miles from the origin and destination of their trip. This is a reasonable exemption that allows the drivers flexibility in delivering the animals to their destination in a timely and safe manner.

At present, we have made a straightforward request that Transport Canada officials update the existing guide to specifically address animal welfare. This would provide clarity to enforcement officers and reassurance to livestock transporters.

Mr. Chair, I am ready for your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much. That was very efficient. Thank you, Mr. Roy.

We'll now turn it over to the National Cattle Feeders' Association.

Ms. Noble, it's over to you.

[Cathy Jo Noble, Vice-President, National Cattle Feeders' Association]

Thank you to the committee for studying this issue and for inviting the National Cattle Feeders' Association to appear.

I'm joined today by David Fehr from Van Raay Paskal Farms in Alberta. David is well positioned to answer questions on how these regulations are impacting the day-to-day operations of transporting livestock, so direct all your hard questions to David.

To be clear, today we are speaking to the Transport Canada regulations that govern drivers' hours of service, which are enforced through electronic logging devices. We are not speaking to or challenging the CFIA regulations that require food, water and rest for animals in transit. We are not seeking an exemption to the ELDs or to the hours of service for livestock transporters. Instead, we are asking for flexibility in enforcement for unforeseen circumstances, where drivers are deciding to either adhere to the hours of service or deliver the animals to their destination.

Livestock transporters operate responsibly. They plan their routes to comply with the hours of service, and they include an extra buffer of time. Nevertheless, on occasion, unforeseen circumstances lead to drivers hitting their allotted hours of service before they get to their destination. Ideally, we would like to align with the United States, where livestock transporters are granted an exemption from hours of service within a radius of 150 air miles of origin and destination.

More immediately, we're requesting that Transport Canada provide clear guidance to all enforcement officers on section 76. Section 76 of the hours of service regulations allows for the extension of driving time in cases of adverse conditions or emergency situations. We are advocating for national guidance stating that a risk to animal welfare is an emergency situation. The agriculture sector has, in fact, provided proposed wording for this guidance to Transport Canada.

Transport Canada has suggested that our concerns are already covered by section 76. We believe that this section is too vague and leaves interpretation to the individual enforcement officers. That's why we are asking for guidance as it relates to animal welfare. Our sectors and our drivers want reassurance that a threat to animal welfare is deemed an emergency situation and that the definition of “adverse conditions” includes traffic accidents but also situations such as being delayed at the border for a CFIA vet inspection or unexpected and unusual animal behavioural challenges.

The agriculture sector did raise our concerns to Transport Canada when they were drafting these regulations. When we raised our concerns to Transport Canada, we were informed that animal welfare is not their mandate. Transport Canada has asked this sector to provide data that we know and they know is not available. This includes the number of hours that would be required additionally, where it would occur and how often it would happen. We cannot predict unforeseen delays until they happen. What we do have are numerous examples, first-hand examples, of how regulations are unworkable for livestock transporters and the animals in their care, and I'd be pleased to share that with you.

Transport Canada officials also suggested that we apply for an exemption under section 16, but we're not seeking an exemption. We have also told Transport Canada that the data required for that exemption is not available in Canada.

We're calling on Transport Canada to amend the regulations, provide guidance on them or determine the best and most timely solution to ensure that livestock drivers have the flexibility required for these unforeseen circumstances to get the animals safely to their destination without facing enforcement action.

We're calling for a meaningful, realistic and timely solution, and we continue to stand ready to work with government to find a solution.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Ms. Noble.

We'll now turn it over to our colleagues for questions.

I think Mr. Steinley is going to start, for six minutes.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.

I was very happy to bring this motion forward because I've heard first-hand about many situations where, not because of the driver's fault, there are just delays in either loading or trying to get to where they need to be. This is why this came forward.

Thank you very much for bringing up an example of what we can do to align our regulations with those of the U.S.A. to make it a bit easier for our livestock industry.

First, I'd like to ask Mr. Lee or Mr. Chaffe, where could a truck pull over and unload livestock if they hit their hours so that they could do it safely? As the witnesses said, the trucks are built for airflow. Where could a truck driver pull over and unload livestock if they had to when they hit their hours of service?

[Ryder Lee, General Manager, Canadian Cattle Association]

Go ahead.

[Jack Chaffe]

I appreciate the question.

I'll use this example. At our feedlot, we bring a lot of western calves out of western Canada into Ontario. They have to stop at Thunder Bay for feed, water and rest. A situation arises where you load cattle in Saskatchewan, you're coming across and you figure on getting to Thunder Bay in time for your feed, water and rest. If your hours of service run out and you're two hours from Thunder Bay, there is no place there to unload in the middle of nowhere. You have to have the facilities to properly unload the cattle and reload them without injury or any undue stress to the animals.

In that situation, the driver would continue on and get those cattle to Thunder Bay, but he would be outside of his driver time.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

How many of those facilities exist across Canada like Thunder Bay?

[Jack Chaffe]

The only feed, water and rest stations that are set up for that are the ones in Thunder Bay. Currently, they're at maximum use.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

That's the situation, especially during the fall calf run.

Can you give an example or share some insight on how long that line could be at Thunder Bay, waiting to load and unload cattle?

[Jack Chaffe]

Currently, most drivers are recommended to call ahead to slot themselves in for unloading there. At times there could be a wait time of one to two hours for unloading.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

For the committee and my fellow committee members.... I think that's the crux of the problem. That loading and unloading time is where they lose the hours of service and where the transportation issues come into play. If anyone has ever loaded cattle, they know that sometimes things happen. You get delayed. I think that's where there needs to be some flexibility for our livestock. It's about the safety of the animals, especially when it comes to a situation where you're going east to west or west to east. There is only one facility in this country where you can actually unload and load cattle. That's why we need a little more flexibility.

Cathy Jo, can you give us some examples from your membership of why that flexibility is needed?

[Cathy Jo Noble]

I'll turn to David, because this is his day-to-day.

Go ahead, David.

[David Fehr, Chief Financial Officer, Van Raay Paskal Farms Ltd. and Member, National Cattle Feeders' Association]

Thank you.

We're a feedlot operator in southern Alberta and we import feeder cattle from the Pacific Northwest in the United States. We're going as far as California, Nebraska, the Dakotas, and things like that. We encounter weather challenges, road challenges, all of these different aspects, and we're dealing with a whole host of different organizations and regulatory authorities. When we're importing U.S. feeder cattle, we have to deal with a USDA-approved vet. That transport has to be approved—it has to go to Washington for approval—and there is a whole host of factors and layers that cause delays throughout this entire process.

Having some flexibility on the tail end and at the beginning of the trip really does allow these drivers to relax and take their time and do their job safely with the best thing in the back of their minds, which is always about the animals.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

If we went down the same path as they have in the States, do you think that would fix a lot of the problems we have when it comes to having certainty and a bit more discretion with our drivers?

[David Fehr]

Yes, I do. In the U.S., because 90% of our miles as a carrier are in the U.S., we find that the ability to transport cattle in that geographic area is a lot easier relative to Canada. The one aspect that I really want to emphasize is that we do a very good job of ensuring that we have facilities in place to bring our cattle in the event of something happening.

I'll use the example of California. You can't make the trip from California to southern Alberta in one go. It would be reckless to try to do that, so we have facilities where these animals go. They are USDA-approved facilities. These animals get dropped there. They're inspected by a vet. They're tagged. They have veterinary services if required. Then they make the rest of the journey up.

I want to really stress that we do everything we can to ensure that we are adhering to hours of service rules, but you can't plan for everything. It could be that the animals aren't co-operating or they're not ready. You're going to a ranch setting where they are missing an animal, and they have to go find it. All of these different aspects really come into play. Having that flexibility is very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much to both of you.

We'll now turn it over to Mr. MacDonald for six minutes.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

This is for the Canadian Cattle Association.

I live on Prince Edward Island. Our pork product goes to Quebec, or did go to Quebec. Now that transportation is going to be even longer than it was, with the Olymel plant closing. We still ship cattle to Quebec, for many reasons, even though we have a beef plant on Prince Edward Island.

On the current regulations surrounding the ELDs, what do we need to do? Just give me some examples of what, in your mind, the regulations need to depict relevant to, for my example, travelling to Quebec in the middle of February.

[Ryder Lee]

Yes, how do you solve Canada?

You raised an important piece, too. It's not that all your livestock is going to this other place, but that other place being able to buy the odd load now and then is super important to your market as a producer. That other buyer in there keeps your local buyer honest, and it's very important across the country to be able to have that access and that competition for your animals.

As has been said across the way here, we need some flexibility to make sure we can get there, and we do. We're not looking for longer hours than was put forward. The ELDs have made it a hard line where, I think, prior to that, people found a way to be flexible in the system. We're not going back from that. Trucking companies like it, but one solution that's been found in the U.S. is that the clock doesn't have to start until you're loaded and rolling for some miles on the front end, and then it doesn't add on at the end as well, to allow for what happened in transit. It may be about borders. I don't know if ferries line up to get off the island. There's veterinarian inspection at the border. Have you ever been on a 400 highway that's been a parking lot for a while?

All of these things would be addressed with that, with a sleeve at the start to deal with some of the things David mentioned or a sleeve at the end to get those livestock there. That's the best thing for them.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Obviously, you're all aware of the topic of biosecurity. While most of the discussion surrounded the fixed locations, obviously we consider biosecurity concerns in the transportation of animals as well.

Maybe you guys could comment on the importance of the regulations that accompany them relevant to biosecurity and pulling off to the side of the road.

Do you want to talk about that for a second, anybody?

[Eric Schwindt, Director, Ontario Pork]

Sure. In the pork industry, definitely biosecurity is number one. Every time we load and unload that pig into new facilities, there's that increased chance that occurs, for instance, of mycoplasma pneumonia and other diseases that are harmful to the animal. I can't stress enough how the loading and unloading of the animal is the hardest part of the journey. Any time we have to pull over one more time, that cure is worse than the disease in terms of adding stress and impacting the animal.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Eric, I'm unfamiliar with any transportation pull-over stops in Atlantic Canada heading towards Quebec.

René, does that happen now, or did it happen? Now that we're going to have to move our pork even farther into Quebec, are there any locations that you're aware of that my farmers would be stopping at?