Agriculture Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

That was my question. Thank you very much.

Ms. Kavanagh, you made much the same recommendations and expressed the same concern. You're against centralized slaughter. Of course, things won't improve overnight. However, if the government were to take steps to facilitate regional processing at sites with less capacity, I imagine you'd agree.

[Lynn Kavanagh]

Yes, absolutely.

I agree with what Ms. Cartwright said. Yes, definitely there is a need for more localized and regional slaughter facilities, for animal welfare reasons and other reasons that some small farmers have talked about publicly in the media and on websites, etc.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much. I understand that you also agree with allowing some flexibility in exceptional cases, out of concern for the animals' health.

Mr. Schwindt, what do you think of the idea of having more regional slaughter facilities and more investment?

I would also open the door for you to talk about government investments in research. I think you're waiting for some university funding. Do you want to speak to that?

[Eric Schwindt]

For sure, as industry we're always encouraging investment in local processing. We believe in that, but that's an issue independent of this transport issue. We want to be able to ensure animal welfare wherever our pigs are going, over short distances or long distances.

You brought up research. I think that as an industry, we're always trying to do better in all that we do. A good example of that is the Elora research build that's happening at the University of Guelph. We as an industry are quite excited about what we can learn there and how that can promote the industry going forward, so we can do a better job of producing pork and looking after our animals in animal care.

To date, we've been disappointed that we haven't been able to partner with the federal government on that. We're looking forward to finding ways to be supported by the government on this project. We're looking forward to that and to what we can learn together.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

In about 10 seconds, can you tell me what kind of help or what kind of response you're looking for?

[Eric Schwindt]

At the Elora research build, there have been three barns built to date: the dairy barn was built, along with a beef facility and a pork facility. Dairy farmers received about $3 million; beef farmers received $2 million. We're hoping to be in that ballpark and we're looking forward to finding a way to get that $2 million to $3 million in support from the federal government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you so much, Mr. Schwindt.

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

We'll go next to Mr. MacGregor. Colleagues, for the second round, we are getting a little bit tight for time. I'm going to try to do four minutes for the Liberals and the Conservatives. We're going to keep you guys to two and a half minutes, and just a few minutes after that we'll be out of here.

Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thanks, Chair.

I don't think I'm going to take my full six minutes. This committee is getting a pretty clear idea of what the problem is.

Ms. Cartwright, I want to thank you for making reference to the difference between unforeseen and foreseen circumstances. This committee has looked at Canada's processing capacity. We know very well the dominance, in our slaughter capacity, of just two companies. We saw the extreme weakness in that system when we were in the midst of the pandemic, especially when the workforce of some of those slaughter houses was severely impacted by COVID-19, and the massive domino effect that had right across the whole industry. We're very well aware of that, and I just want to thank you for bringing that up.

Is there anything you want to add to your previous intervention with my colleague, Monsieur Perron? Is there anything you want to clarify? I'll give you a minute or so.

[Barbara Cartwright]

Thank you for the opportunity to add other reflections.

I feel as if I've been very clear that we want to ensure that any guidance, amendments or exemptions are about real animal welfare emergencies, not industry shortfall or industry being poorly organized, especially as we move into new realities and regulations. These regulations are set to make industry better, whether it's the trucking industry or the agricultural industry. We don't want to sidestep any of those for inadequacies. We want them to promote the industry in order to create better processes, better planning, and better systems.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Fitzgerald, I'd also like to thank you for coming and adding a voice of expertise from the trucking industry's perspective.

One question I have for you is this. When it comes to planning purposes and unforeseen circumstances.... I'm thinking about the worst-case scenario, where there's a complete and total mechanical breakdown of a truck. What does that usually involve? Do you have another driver on standby who can come? I'm trying to figure it out. I see a pattern here of trying to make these regulations a bit more open to interpretation in unforeseen circumstances.

What does the industry do today when planning for that worst-case scenario? What kind of backup plan do you have when that occurs?

[Susan Fitzgerald]

Thank you very much for that question.

I'm going to ask my colleague Mr. Shantz, who works at a transport company, to give an example of that.

[Don Shantz]

I will give you an example of what happened in the last two weeks.

There was a truck coming from western Canada with a load of stockers—little calves. The truck was on Highway 17 between Wawa and Sault Ste. Marie. The new equipment we have nowadays.... With the emissions requirements brought upon transport trucks, we have more equipment failures than we had in the past. When the emissions system detects a certain fault, it can do what we call a “derate” on the engine.

The driver calls me. He tells me the truck is telling him it's going to derate. He's down to less than an hour. He's within 30 to 40 minutes of Sault Ste. Marie. I spring into action. I call the shop in Sault Ste. Marie and line up some service there. This is already after six o'clock on a Friday night, with nobody in the shop. I contact a guy. He responds back to me. He says he'll meet our truck there. Several hours later, he gives me a diagnosis. He says he does not have the parts available in Sault Ste. Marie.

As a team here at Vernla, we talked together, and the decision was made that myself and another driver would get in the truck and head to Sault Ste. Marie to rescue that load of livestock and get it to its destination.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Mr. Shields, we'll go to you for about four minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to be here today.

The issue we have seen is flexibility, in the sense of a definition, and regulatory change in the future. I am currently working on a PMB to hopefully look at aligning with the U.S. That's a long-term goal.

What is the definition now of flexibility? I'll give you an idea of how hard it is to get the data.

I'm driving down the highway. I have a paper logbook in front of me. A severe accident happens with three vehicles. I stop my rig. I'm out. I'm helping on that accident scene, because there's nobody else. We're pulling people out of vehicles and the rest of it. With a paper logbook, I put that in as a pause. In the logbooks we have now, how do you explain to somebody, a long time later, what that was, and do they believe you? That's the real life of truckers on the highway. It really is. I've experienced driving first-hand with a paper logbook. It's a challenge.

Thank you for mentioning bees. The bee guys are very concerned about that, because the bees are gone if they stop. This is a problem.

Ms. Fitzgerald, when we talk about transportation.... Some people don't realize how integrated the cattle industry is in western Canada and the northern U.S., and how few border crossings we have there. When we talk about alternate routes.... We have one in Alberta, in Coutts. We have one in Saskatchewan and two in B.C.

How integrated, from your point of view, is our cattle industry?

[Susan Fitzgerald]

Well, as you heard from Mr. Fehr this morning, they do schedule and plan loading and unloading spots, but when you get into those situations where you have limited alternative routes in terms of infrastructure, whether that be roads or bridges, etc., and one of those is closed or out—and we have the same sort of situation in northern Ontario as well with crossings coming across the top of the lake—it's a very difficult situation to then find alternative routes and to keep that load moving. If you're getting backed up, the driver's clock keeps ticking. So even though the animals may be fine— because as we've heard, the hours for the animals are separate, and that's usually 36 or 28—the driver's allotted hours are much shorter than that, so it's the driver who could time out before getting the animals to their planned destination.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

The cattle industry is a very integrated western Canada-northern U.S. industry. The animals don't know the difference between one side of the border and the other. Cattle guys just move animals where the best prices are, back and forth across that border. The challenge people don't understand is that we have one regulatory system on one side of the border and another one on the other side, but then the drivers get caught. I think our member—whom I respect—brought up who gets the tickets and who doesn't. My wife doesn't get the tickets; I do.

We've had that discussion before. That's the interpretation we need to get clarified, and it's a challenge. Is that right?

[Susan Fitzgerald]

That's correct.

We're talking about giving those drivers the assurance and the peace of mind that for doing what they know is best for the animals in their care, they're not going to be charged. You may hear from Transport Canada the concern about driver safety, and something they asked us was whether we could provide them with data or research on commercial truck crashes and any relevant research on ELDs. That research has not been done in Canada, but I did provide them with research that was done in the U.S. by Northeastern University, the University of Arkansas and Michigan State University, which looked at that.

They said that with the implementation of ELDs in the United States there was greater compliance with hours of service regulation, so staying within those hours, but that also led to unsafe driving violations. You heard mentioned earlier that we don't want to create a situation in which drivers are feeling that pressure, that stress to increase their speed or to change their safe driving practices. We don't want to do that. As you also heard from Mr. Fehr, animal transport is one of the safest sectors in commercial transport because of the nature of the freight—they're hauling live animals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Shields.

Thank you, Ms. Fitzgerald.

We'll turn it over to Ms. Taylor Roy for up to four minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. This is an important discussion because we're dealing with the health and well-being of not only the drivers of these animal transports and the other people on the road but also the animals, even though we're not dealing specifically with the length of time that animals.... Those regulations are from CFIA. Obviously, as has been discussed, the ability of the drivers to stop to tend to animal welfare issues is germane to this conversation.

There's been a lot of discussion around the exact guidance that should be given to the provincial and territorial bodies that are enforcing these regulations, and I agree that there should be more specificity and guidance. We've heard from the cattle industry and the pork industry, but I am wondering whether Barbara or Lynn might have some thoughts about what should be considered an emergency and what kind of guidance should be given to these bodies, from the perspective of animal welfare as well, when they're looking at what an emergency is or how to decide what the flexibility in the regulations is.

[Lynn Kavanagh]

Do you want to go ahead, Barb?

[Barbara Cartwright]

I do, certainly. Thank you for the question.

We've heard about some of the things we would consider to be emergencies, things like adverse weather impacts and road accidents. Certainly during the pandemic there were a number of emergencies that came up when it came to the matter of moving livestock, whether those were border closures, issues at the border or pandemic impacts on staff at different slaughter plants and how that slowed things down. There are definitely issues that are going to arise, and we would be happy to work with Transport Canada and with our colleagues in industry to identify what those are. What we don't want is to have those things that are actually structural and that need to be changed in any case, in terms of both the Health of Animals Act and the transport regulations.

I think that would cover it for me.

Lynn, do you have something to add?

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I have another question, Lynn, if you don't mind. I'm sorry. It's a short time.

In addition, we're talking right now about symptoms of a root problem that is caused, it seems, by a lot of structural issues. What has been brought up was the lack of rest stations—as we heard, there's only one in the east-west corridor, in Thunder Bay—and the concentration of slaughterhouses. These things are causing issues not only for the drivers of the trucks, obviously, and the people in the transport industry but also for the farmers and animals. Then you have, on top of that, pandemic risks—or biosecurity risks, at least.

What can be done to restructure this industry in the longer term in some way, so we don't have stressed drivers of live animals, problems with animals and all these issues with border crossings and closed roads, etc.? What do you think we can do, realistically, to alleviate some of the root causes of these problems?

[Barbara Cartwright]

I can start by answering the question about the trucks, but then I'd love to hand it over to Lynn to talk about the restructuring of the actual slaughter system.

One of the examples given was that when temperatures are very hot and there's a slowdown at the slaughter plant, the trucks may be asked to drive around in order to create airflow for the animals. That triggers driving time for them. A simple solution to that is climate-controlled trucks, which we don't have but should be requiring across the country, especially as we move into more climate change issues. That's a big and important solution. It would mean the driver doesn't have to drive and the animals aren't suffering while the emergency at the plant is being dealt with.

Lynn, do you want to talk about other parts?

[Lynn Kavanagh]

Yes. Thanks, Barb and MP Taylor Roy.

We've heard a few times about—and have already had questions on—the issue of limited slaughter capacity in Canada. It's not an easy, quick fix, I imagine, but it's certainly something that has a lot of buy-in. We know farmers in multiple provinces have expressed this concern. The National Farmers Union has been working on this issue. I have heard Quebec and B.C. farmers expressing the need for that. Sometimes they can't even book their animals in a slaughter plant, because there's not enough space. Also, the domination of the processing facilities by two conglomerates needs to change.

I think, because there's so much buy-in, we need to work together—industry, animal welfare groups and others—to make this happen.

I can give you an example from the research I did on the end of life for cull dairy cows. In certain cases—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Ms. Kavanagh, we're at time. We're actually about 45 seconds over.

I'll let you finish your thought, but do so very quickly, if you could.