Evidence of meeting #87 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was grocery.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gonzalo Gebara  President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.
Galen G. Weston  Chairman, Loblaw Companies Limited

8:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

I call this meeting to order.

Colleagues, welcome to meeting number 87 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

I'm going to start with just a few reminders. Of course, today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. As everyone is aware, the webcast always shows the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee. Of course, screenshots are not permitted.

I'm going to skip over the rest. You all know what we're here for.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, October 19, 2023, the committee is resuming its study on efforts to stabilize food prices.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses for today's panel. For the first hour, from Walmart Canada Corporation, we have Gonzalo Gebara, who is the president and chief executive officer. He is joining us via virtual means this morning. Welcome, Mr. Gebara.

We're going to allow five minutes for opening remarks. I'll allow a little give-or-take. If you need a little more than five minutes, that's fine, Mr. Gebara. Then we're going to turn to questions. We'll do that for an hour.

We have Mr. Weston coming in for the second hour.

Mr. Gebara, we go over to you for up to five minutes.

8:15 a.m.

Gonzalo Gebara President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning to all members of the committee.

Thank you for the opportunity to once again appear before the committee to discuss Walmart's leadership in food pricing.

We're here to share how we have been working hard to provide Canadians with EDLP, or everyday low prices. At Walmart, we have always been a disrupter within Canadian grocery. This fact is highlighted in the recent grocery market study by the Competition Bureau. It notes how our entry into Canada brought additional choice to consumers and put pressure on competitors to lower prices.

We recently launched and posted on our website a study by Deloitte showing that when a Walmart store opens in a major metropolitan area in Canada, it leads to a decrease in the price of a general basket of consumer goods, saving Canadian families in those areas almost $1,000 per year, no matter where they shop.

If you shop with Walmart, you know that our EDLP price strategy is what differentiates us from our competitors. Recent news stories have highlighted the significant savings Canadians receive when they shop at Walmart. As I emphasized when I first came to this committee in March, EDLP means providing our customers with consistently low prices on products without having to wait for sales events. This means that customers can trust that prices will always be low at Walmart. We're so committed to low prices that a key internal metric of success for us is our price gap—the difference between our prices and our competitors' prices.

Over the last 18 months, as food prices rose across Canada, we continued to strive to maintain a material price gap lower than our competitors'. Through this period of high inflation, we were diligent in holding our prices flat where possible, and in some cases even lowered our prices. This sometimes required us to absorb cost increases or to reject unjustified cost increases from suppliers. To give you a sense of magnitude, last year Walmart received six times the cost increase requests from suppliers compared with prepandemic levels.

In your last study on food price inflation, you heard from industry experts that numerous factors contribute to grocery price inflation long before the products reach grocers' shelves. As reported by the Retail Council of Canada this fall, more than 70% of the final shelf price represents the cost imposed by suppliers. The vast majority of the remaining 30% goes to normal expenses in running a grocery business.

Government policies and regulations, supply chain disruptions, foreign conflicts, domestic labour shortages and climate change events all have inflationary effects as well, not only on the cost of food for suppliers but also on the grocers' operating costs. This context is important, but ultimately we know that Canadians want solutions.

I have some examples of our company-wide efforts to combat inflation over the last 18 months. We've invested significantly in our Walmart brands, offering 3,000 budget-friendly food and consumable products. Canadians can rely on Walmart brands to save an average of 33% more than national brand prices at our stores. We've expanded our 97¢ program, offering an assortment of pantry staples for less than a dollar by absorbing significant cost increases from suppliers. Our promotional programs, such as Rollback and Save Now, offer savings of around 10% to 40% on thousands of items. This year during the holiday season, we started these programs even earlier than last year. For Thanksgiving this year, we offered a meal at a price lower than last year's price. We launched our December Dollar Days to highlight thousands of items under $10 to help with our customers' holiday needs.

In our submissions to both Minister Champagne and this committee, we have provided policy recommendations that could help the government stabilize and even lower food prices. This includes a more robust Competition Bureau to examine competition throughout the supply chain, including suppliers; harmonizing regulatory requirements to lower the cost of goods for consumers; developing a supply chain labour strategy; and prioritizing regional development agencies to support building Canadian manufacturing capacity in key food sectors—namely, pasta, beans, frozen foods, meat packaging and infant formula.

The whole value chain needs to be accountable for lowering food prices for Canadians. That includes manufacturers, producers, suppliers, retailers and the governments too. As our founder, Sam Walton, said, “If we work together, we'll lower the cost of living for everyone”.

Let me assure you, Mr. Chairman, that more than 100,000 Walmart Canada associates work hard every day to fulfill the objective of lowering the cost of living for Canadians.

I would be happy to answer any questions you may have at this time.

Thank you very much.

8:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you very much, Mr. Gebara.

Again, welcome to the committee. I think you've been before a committee before, but if not, you can toggle between English and French in terms of the interpretation as the questions come in.

We will start the questions with the Conservatives.

Ms. Rood, it's over to you for up to six minutes.

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, sir, for being here today.

Sir, as you know, I've been a big supporter of establishing a grocery code of conduct, and we've heard a lot about the code in the news lately, mainly because your company has not agreed to sign on to the code yet. At this point, the code is voluntary, but without all of the big chains signing on to the code of conduct, you actually risk the provinces mandating the code, versus it being voluntary.

I'm wondering if you could tell this committee why you haven't signed on to the code and what needs to be done in order to get you to sign on to the code.

8:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

As I said the last time we met, we are heavily involved in discussing the code and trying to understand the different provisions from it. As it appears today, we believe the code is not in a position for us to commit to signing it, and we want to commit to continuing to discuss and be involved in the different provisions to make sure we can have a code that can help consumers have lower prices. As you very well know, at Walmart, having low prices is what we do, so we want to make sure the code has all of the different provisions and conditions so we can conduct our business to offer low prices every day for our customers across Canada.

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you.

Earlier this year, the Minister of Environment sought feedback on the development of a pollution prevention, or P2, planning notice for primary food plastic packaging. I'm curious if your company participated in those consultations on the proposed plastics ban for fresh food. Could you give this committee an idea of what that will mean to consumers from a retail perspective? Will prices go up for the cost of food if a plastics ban is imposed for fresh food at the grocery level?

8:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

First of all, Walmart is actively collaborating with Environment and Climate Change Canada's consultation on the P2 project.

Walmart made the public announcement several years ago that we are a regenerative company and have very ambitious goals on reusable and recyclable packaging, making sure all the packaging we use is industrially compostable and making sure we commit to those big ambitions of being a regenerative company.

In recent discussions with the department, we were encouraged to continue to discuss these provisions. I would say that at this point it's too soon to tell what the impact will be, but certainly, there need to be more discussions on what the impact of such provisions will be on prices.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you.

We know the front-of-pack labelling is going to cost $2 billion. Do you have any idea...? I know you said you don't know how much it's going to cost. At the store level, I understand, you're reducing plastic waste, and that's great, very commendable. I think we're all on board with that. It's just that the plastic ban on the fresh fruit and vegetable industry.... Do you know what it will do to food costs if all of a sudden...? Food has to come into the store from faraway countries on ships. It sometimes takes weeks to get to the retail level, and that's why plastic is so important for keeping food fresh.

Until we have a commercially viable alternative to plastic, what would it cost consumers at your end? I can imagine there would be a lot more food waste at the store level if produce coming in is going to spoil a lot faster without being packaged in plastic that would preserve it until it can get to the consumers' homes.

8:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

As I said, we're assessing the new conditions. At Walmart, we pay very close attention to the supply chain network and the cost to make sure we can have the most efficient network possible. Moving fresh produce and fresh products across all of Canada with the geography we have is complicated in itself. I also believe that having high ambitions on regeneration and having big goals on making this planet better is something we should all be looking for. We will try to continue to collaborate on those discussions.

Again, I trust we will get creative and find solutions as we walk through this process, to ensure that—

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you very much.

Do you think the timeline that the Liberal government is suggesting for the plastics ban is feasible?

8:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

I'm sorry. Could you repeat that question?

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Is the timeline that the government is suggesting for this proposed plastics ban—within two years—feasible, yes or no?

8:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

It's complicated, but we'll try our best.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Lianne Rood Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

The Prime Minister recently asked you to come here. I'm wondering what specific recommendations you gave to the government to initiate. Have any of those recommendations been acted upon?

8:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

It's public knowledge that we were there several weeks ago. We had a very collaborative conversation on working together to find ways to lower prices. We all brought different ideas and different plans to make sure that we could have a stabilization of prices going into the holiday season.

8:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Kody Blois

Thank you very much, Ms. Rood and Mr. Gebara.

We'll turn it over to Mr. MacDonald for up to six minutes.

8:25 a.m.

Liberal

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Gebara, for being here today.

Obviously, we faced a lot of challenges over the last two or three years. It was a time when we had supply chain issues from around the world.

Now that we're moving away from the pandemic, we're still seeing, up until just recently, some price fluctuations, mostly on the higher side. One excuse was the transportation issues during the pandemic. I'm wondering why grocery prices are not coming down, along with inflation, as we distance ourselves from the pandemic and those troubles we had the past two and a half years.

8:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

Thank you very much, Mr. MacDonald.

As I said in my opening statement, prices are a function of many variables. Even though some parts of the supply chain have been stabilized, it's not all of them. There is still inconsistency in the level of production of key commodities in different parts of the world. There are still geopolitical issues around the world. Those things normally also have an impact on the costs in the supply chain. Certainly the supply chain is more stable than it was two years ago, but it's still not at the level where we are seeing prices go down dramatically.

As you heard me say minutes ago, the price that we have on the shelves is the result of many different costs and prices across the supply chain and the value creation chain.

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you.

Back in March, I believe, Walmart expressed its willingness to participate in the grocery store code of conduct. Then in October, it seemed to change. It was reported by the Financial Post that it was hesitant.

Can you explain the change of heart from Walmart's perspective?

8:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

In March, I stated here that we were willing to participate in analyzing all of the provisions of the code to make sure that we have the right environment to conduct business—with producers, aggregators, suppliers, distributors and retailers—to make sure that we can offer our Canadian consumers, in the case of Walmart, the lowest prices possible. We have been actively participating in the discussions about the code. It's just that we are not in a position at this time to commit to it.

We still want to have more clarity on some provisions.

December 7th, 2023 / 8:30 a.m.

Liberal

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

A Canadian study is out this morning, saying, “2 in 3 Canadians believe a grocery code of conduct is a good idea”. It says that if the grocery stores don't abide by a code of conduct, up to 70% of Canadians would be in favour of imposing it on retailers.

You're talking to a room full of politicians who obviously will be pressured by their constituents. What do you say to us when we're seeing the hesitation of Walmart to sign on to the grocery code of conduct? How do we relay that message back to our constituents, who, over the past couple of years, due to all the items and many of the issues you talked about, have been facing a lot of challenges, including the price of groceries?

8:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

Gonzalo Gebara

I would say, please continue to invite us to these sessions and help us to participate in those discussions, because it's in our DNA to have low prices. We think that, if we work together, we will be able to set the provisions to have lower prices in Canada. The thing I would ask is that you continue to invite us to those discussions, please.

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

Do you think, Mr. Gebara, that we have a monopoly in Canada, as it concerns the big grocery companies?

8:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Wal-Mart Canada Corp.

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

Heath MacDonald Liberal Malpeque, PE

Do you feel we should be working to introduce further competition in the grocery sector?