Agriculture Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Yes, it is. This is not going to stop horse breeding. This is not going to stop horse selling. We have horse abattoirs for that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

In some parts of the world they do enjoy fresh horse meat as a delicacy—sometimes it's consumed raw. It's a cultural thing, and we're not here to pass judgment. Given that this is not about banning the raising of horses for human consumption in Canada, do you think there may be more opportunities to increase local processing and better economic opportunities that result from that in Canada? If we are to ban the export and transportation of live horses, would that give rise to maybe more processing happening in Canada?

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

That's certainly a possibility. You and I have both sat on this committee and studied processing. Especially through the pandemic, we saw that that was a bit of choke point—to get food from farm to table. However, to reiterate your point, this is not stopping domestic consumption of horse meat. This would not stop the selling and breeding of horses. Nor do we have any jurisdiction over what other countries are eating or doing. It's not about this. It's, again, cultural respect everywhere. This is simply banning the export of live horses for slaughter.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

This is my final question. I do note that Senator Pierre Dalphond has Bill S-270, which he introduced last year. Did you have any conversations with him, and how did you come to the conclusion to draft your bill the way it is compared with how the senator drafted his bill?

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

It was a bit of a horse race. We were both moving around at the same time, and I just got there first. We have had conversations. We even sit on another committee together. He's been very helpful. I'm still keeping him in the loop. We approached it in a slightly different way. However, I wanted to make sure that my bill was a stand-alone bill that didn't affect any other livestock or any other production.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Okay, we're going to leave it at that.

We'll go to Mr. Steinley for up to five minutes.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I'd really like to begin where Mr. MacGregor left off.

You just said this is not about banning the consumption of horse meat domestically. Your colleague, Mr. Carr, has talked about horses being sentient beings and that Canadians believe, in lots of correspondence he has received, that it's about treating horses with the respect and dignity they deserve.

I'd like you to tie those two positions together. Many of the emails I've received, like Mr. Carr has said, are about stopping the consumption of horse meat. I want to make it clear—you just said that is not the aim of your bill.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I appreciate your saying that, and I appreciate all the people writing to you to ask to end this practice. This is not.... This is a stand-alone bill that is simply banning the export of horses live for slaughter.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

With all of the people who have sent in emails to stop the production of horse meat and the consumption of horse meat, will you be responding to them by saying that this is not the point of this bill? This bill is to stop the transportation of horses by air to other countries for consumption.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I appreciate the question and your understanding of the nuance of this. That is exactly what the bill says it's going to do. I wanted to be specific, because that would be the best way to get the most support. That's what we said we would do, and I'm going to do it.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I'll just go back to Mr. Carr's comments, because many of the people he represents want this practice completely banned. Are you and Mr. Carr not on the same page, then, of what this bill is supposed to be doing?

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

When I set out to draft this private member's bill, it was to ban the practice of exporting live horses for slaughter. That's the intention of the bill, and that's what we're working on and talking about right here.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much for clarifying that.

I have a list of stakeholders who do not support Bill C-355. It's something that I'd to put into the record. Some of my colleagues have said that this is a pan-Canadian approach and that lots of people across the country are in favour of this, but lots of groups have questions and concerns about this.

The list includes the following: the Air Line Pilots Association Canada; Alberta Auction Markets Association; Alberta Beef Producers; Alberta Breeder Finance Inc.; Alberta Grazing Leaseholders Association; Beef Farmers of Ontario; British Columbia Cattlemen's Association; Canadian Cattle Association; Canadian Equine Exporters Association; Canadian Meat Council; Canadian Federation of Agriculture; Egg Farmers of Alberta; Equestrian Canada; Feeder Associations of Alberta Limited; Horse Welfare Alliance of Canada; Livestock Markets Association of Canada; Les Producteurs de bovins du Québec; Manitoba Beef Producers; members of the Métis Nation of Alberta; New Brunswick Cattle Producers; Nova Scotia Cattle Producers; Saskatchewan cattle producers; Spruce Meadows; Prince Edward Island Cattle Producers; Western Cash Advance Program Inc.; and Western Stock Growers' Association.

How many of these groups have you discussed this with and heard their concerns when it comes to Bill C-355?

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I appreciate that list. It sounds like it's a very thorough list. I've had conversations with some. I would appreciate any of those organizations reaching out to any one of us. That's our job here at committee. It's to hear from stakeholders, have those conversations, bring those ideas forward and debate them. So I think—

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

All right. Thank you.

Just to get back to one of the comments Mr. Carr made, he talked about “sentient beings”. I think one of the fears people have is, what would be next? If we go after what people decide to eat, are cattle next? Are hogs next? Are chickens next? I think some of these stakeholders have a fear that it's a slippery slope. They have real concerns about where we're going right now. That would be their concern.

I'll end with this. When you talked to the FCC, have they confirmed....? I ask because they do have direct borrowers who are horse breeders—40% of whom are indigenous, I might add. My questions is this. Farm Credit Canada has confirmed that their clients who operate in the horse industry have borrowed since 2008. If people's livelihoods are prohibited by this law and it is carried through, the FCC could be considered a public expense if they no longer are able to pay their debts.

How much money would taxpayers be on the hook for, having to pay out these horse breeders, if this bill goes forward? What is the cost to the Canadian taxpayer?

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I appreciate the question.

This bill will not ban the breeding or selling of horses. This bill will ban the exporting of those horses to be slaughtered in another country—

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Which kneecaps the industry, right?

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

—but it will not stop this industry from happening.

To answer your other question—

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Will there be compensation through the FCC?

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

—you talked about the slippery slope, but I've already answered the fact that this will not affect the domestic meat industry. That is not a slippery slope. This is a stand-alone bill on purpose to make sure that it doesn't happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Louis, and thank you, Mr. Steinley.

We'll now turn to Ms. Taylor Roy for up to five minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Louis, for introducing this private member's bill.

I know it was a commitment our government had made and it was going to be fulfilled—I know Minister MacAulay is supportive of this—but I appreciate the fact that you put it forward in a private member's bill so it could be dealt with sooner.

As Mr. Carr has referred to, and as I'm sure as every member on this committee has, I too have received many emails from constituents regarding this bill. There is great support for banning the export of horses. Very specifically, the concern is about how these animals suffer when they are being transported.

I rode horses when I was younger. My daughter is an equestrian. In fact, she was educated at Olds College in Alberta in equestrian studies. She is not only a rider and show person, but she also works with horses. I don't think she would ever transport her show horse by plane. We know these animals have a great fight-or-flight kind of instinct. When they're stressed in a situation like this, it's very difficult for these horses.

I was thinking about what the member opposite said, which was that there had been no deaths. I think choosing a date is nice, but in the Library of Parliament notes that were sent to all of us, it does mention that since 2013, five horses have died in association with transportation. I had actually reached out to the Library of Parliament to gather information as well.

Some horses have died, but more than that I would say that all of them suffer. Animals are sentient beings. I would agree with that. While we're not saying people in Canada cannot eat horsemeat, we are simply saying that we do not approve of this practice.

I wanted to mention another thing, which is that the U.K. has introduced a much broader bill. It's actually called an animal welfare bill because they are concerned about the welfare of animals. It's to ban all livestock exports from the U.K. That was introduced in December 2023. Again, they're not banning the consumption of animals, they're simply banning the export of these animals because they understand that is not in the best interests of animal welfare.

There are many reasons.

I did want to introduce one thing that I found disturbing. Both Mr. Barlow and Mr. Steinley, when they were making their remarks, referred to members of the Métis nation, some of whom do have businesses in this area raising animals to be transported for slaughter on these feedlots. I appreciate that is part of their livelihood and I understand that is one way they are making a living.

However, I would object to referring to the Métis traditions and cultures as though somehow this is consistent with indigenous culture and tradition. We all know, or we should know if we've looked at indigenous culture and tradition at all, that a key tenet of animal-indigenous relationships is respect. I would sincerely question whether there is a great deal of respect being shown to these magnificent animals when they are bred to be slaughtered at the age of 18 months and to be transported in crates for more than 28 hours without any food or water.

I did also want to refer to one other thing, which was a question he had about whether any rules are being broken.

Because rules are not necessarily being broken—and in some instances, we do not know that because although we have rules, they're often not enforced and not checked—section 146 of the Health of Animals Regulations, which I'm sure Mr. Barlow is familiar with, does prohibit individuals from transporting an animal if it “is likely to suffer, sustain an injury or die”.

I would suggest that most horses, if they could talk—I remember Mister Ed, the talking horse—they would indicate that they do suffer when they're being transported for 28 hours, standing with no food or water. It often goes longer than that.

I am someone who does care about all sentient beings and thinks that we have a responsibility as a government and to our constituents. Once again, I have received thousands of emails from constituents. In fact, I got one from a woman recently who said she's been waiting 19 years to see this happen. She's been advocating for this for that long.

Thank you very much for doing this. It is our job to look at these rules—even if they're not being broken—if they're inadequate to protect the welfare of animals.

There is one thing I did want to ask you about in particular. Some of the acts that are meant to protect horses fall short of enforcing or even including horses that are raised for slaughter or destined for transport for slaughter. For example, the National Farm Animal Care Council published a “Code of Practice for the Care and Handling of Equines” meant to uphold standards for horses on feedlots, but they do not include enforcement or penalties for operators. Then there's the “Horse Welfare Code of Conduct” by Equestrian Canada—again, something my daughter belongs to—but they don't even include horses destined for slaughter. It seems that horses bred for slaughter often receive less protection. Do you believe that it translates to a lack of welfare upheld by industry practices?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Mr. Louis and Ms. Taylor Roy, I was trying to be generous, but we are vastly over time. Mr. Louis, if you could quickly summarize, I'll let you go ahead.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I can summarize by saying that I think the length of your question shows your expertise and your care, and I appreciate that. You're not alone; Canadians across the country want this practice to end.

Thank you.