Evidence of meeting #96 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was animals.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, The Canadian Equine Exporters Association
It's very limited, but yes.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you for that.
I do want, in my limited time, to turn to Overseas Horse Services. I want to go through the points that you made, Mr. Serrien, on the bill's contents.
I heard three specific concerns during your opening statement.
You made reference to the fact that pilots don't have any experience with horses, and I agree. Their main expertise is to fly the plane. I think you had concern with the fact that pilots have to have the declaration delivered to them.
You mentioned also that the CBSA and airport facilities don't really have the facilities to detain horses appropriately, with the standard level of care that they deserve.
I think, also, there were just concerns over the documentation.
If we, as a committee, were to address those specific concerns that you have in the bill with amendments, would that then make the bill more palatable to you and your organization in terms of support? I just want to know your overall comfort level if we were to address those specific concerns.
Managing Director, Overseas Horse Services Ltd.
Yes, it would be.
With the pilots and CBSA, I think they're just the wrong people to give the declaration to. I think it needs to be under CFIA.
Number two is that if there are proper facilities at these airports to detain horses.... I'm just talking about companion horses and sport horses: It could be a charter; it could be 30 polo ponies, for example, or it could be 30 show jumpers. If they have those facilities to detain them and to feed and water them, then yes, that is part of what we would like to see.
The problem is that a lot of these airports don't have the finances or the land to build these facilities. The only two in Canada that have facilities are Calgary airport and Toronto airport, but in Montreal, Ottawa and Halifax, none of the airports have these facilities, so that's our problem with the detention.
The other problem that we see is traceability. There is no traceability whatsoever. We depend solely on the information from the owner of the horse.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you. I have just 30 seconds left, and I wanted to get a quick question to Dr. Watson.
Dr. Watson, I've been on the tarmac of an airport when I've had to exit the building and get onto an aircraft. We're all very familiar with the high noise levels at airports and inside an aircraft when it's accelerating down the runway.
Can you talk a bit about what those noise levels are like for an animal like a horse?
Veterinarian, As an Individual
They're loud. Other planes are landing and taking off while these horses are being unloaded from the truck and then waiting to be flown.
Horses have a keen sense of hearing, like many species of animals, so they would be disturbing, the same way they're disturbing to us, but they are especially disturbing to horses, who have never been exposed to any of these sounds. That's what is so stressful about transport for horses—it's exposure to stimuli they've not encountered before, and that's what is important.
The other witnesses commented about habituation and conditioning to various stimuli that they're going to encounter during transport. These feedlot animals are not accustomed to any of that, and that's what makes it particularly stressful, especially when compared to other groups that have had that kind of conditioning.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
I apologize. I gave an extra 30 seconds, but, colleagues, try to not ask questions in the last 30 seconds, because there's generally not time for an accurate response.
I'm usually pretty flexible, but we're at time.
How we're going to do this will be four minutes to the Conservatives, four minutes to the Liberals, two minutes and two minutes, I hope, to my NDP and Bloc colleagues, so we can be fair and get ourselves out of here shortly after.
Mr. Leslie, you have four minutes.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
I'm sorry to hear that Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada officials, as well as, I assume, any other folks you tried to meet with on this issue, have been non-responsive to the invitation for a tour. Not everybody in government is like that, though, because Pat, in my riding, who breeds horses for this exact purpose, reached out to me when he heard of this legislation. He asked if I could come for a tour, and I did. I went and saw the care that he takes of his animals. It was very clear to him that this Liberal legislation, with the help of the radical animal-rights activist groups, is trying to put him and 300-plus other families in this industry out of business with absolutely no regard for their financial future and the future of their entire sector. You mentioned celebrities, and yes, they have effectively used celebrities—albeit D-list celebrities—to try to gain support for issues with the ulterior agenda of actually giving animals rights, not worrying about animal welfare.
In those conversations with AAFC that you or other MPs have had, has there been a lot of interest in understanding what the financial consequences would be to the members you represent? Do you have any kind of statistic on what the anticipated cost would be for your members?
Treasurer, Canadian Equine Exporters Association
At this point, no, there has not been any interest in understanding the economics of the devaluation of this commodity, of these animals, of these people's livestock, of their ability to feed their families. We, as an industry, find that extremely concerning. We want to be up front and have people realize that we do care for our animals. We pride ourselves on upholding and surpassing standards. We want to be active in addressing this legislation and feel that it needs to be more comprehensive.
A lot of these families have put their entire lives into breeding a specific bloodline of these horses. To lose that when we are exceeding the standards is extremely disheartening to us.
Mr. Shore, do you have something you would like to add?
President, The Canadian Equine Exporters Association
Yes, again, as I have explained already, these foals, mares and studs have been devalued or will be devalued to under 10% of their present worth when this ban is in effect. There will be approximately 13,000 horses—foals, mares and studs—that have no other market.
What is going to happen to these horses?
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you.
Mr. Wilson, you mentioned the care that your members or producers provide. They obviously care deeply about these animals. Is there any evidence that there has been maltreatment or mistreatment by any producers of animals destined for export, and is there any evidence that the CFIA has not done an adequate job of inspecting the transportation of these animals?
Treasurer, Canadian Equine Exporters Association
Absolutely not. We uphold our standards. We surpass our standards. We have had audits from the SPCA at my feedlot. We have had the report that is published on the freedom of information act, and the notes of the officers are that we need to bring more people to these facilities to see how these animals are handled.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Thank you, colleagues.
Mr. Drouin, you have no more than four minutes, please.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Watson, I just want to ask you a few questions.
Do you do animal agriculture at all?
Veterinarian, As an Individual
I practice with a multitude of animal species. I'm primarily a companion-animal veterinarian. However, yes, veterinary medicine is one of extrapolation from species to species in terms of drug use and other things, so when called upon, although it's not frequently, I do care for horses.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Large animals are not part of your day-to-day operation.
Veterinarian, As an Individual
Cows are not part of my day-to-day operation. Small ruminants are not part of my day-to-day operation.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Okay, thank you.
Mr. Wilson, thank you for appearing before committee.
I will be up front with everyone. Mr. Wilson is my constituent.
I want to thank your family for contributing to our local economy. I have known the Wilson family for a long time. I appreciate the contributions that you have made, not only to Vankleek Hill but also to the entire region in our community.
As is, the bill calls for an 18-month coming into force. We will be coming to amendments in the next few weeks for the bill. I'm not going to chastise anyone in this place for supporting or not supporting this particular bill. Everyone has a right to stand up for what they truly believe.
However, should this bill move forward and should it be adopted by Parliament, the coming into force and the impact on the farm, from raising colts or.... From the time a colt comes onto your farm to when it leaves your farm, what is that time frame?
Treasurer, Canadian Equine Exporters Association
I've forgotten the gentleman's name. I voted Liberal, and I have supported the Liberal Party over the last several years. I just want that on the record.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
You'll get crucified for that back home, by the way.
Treasurer, Canadian Equine Exporters Association
Yes.
This, again, brings up our point on the lack of consultation that we want to be transparent about.
As a dairy farmer would argue when they're trying to buy their quota, and I hear this through my businesses: “Kevin, we can't shut the tap off.” The lack of understanding is paramount. These mares in foal are going to foal in 2024. The reality is they're going to be bred in 2024 to foal again in 2025. You can't shut that off.
They don't come to my facility until they're between six and 12 months of age. We take the utmost care of these horses. Some of these horses that we take from some people aren't in the best of shape. They haven't been wormed; they haven't been cared for, and they haven't had their feet trimmed. We provide that for them.
It takes us almost 24 months to get these horses into market condition, and then we transport them across Canada. I have some of the best people working for me, who do this on a monthly basis. I have invested over $150,000 in each trailer I use, and I have invested in layover spots along the route, where these horses are fed electrolytes; they're rested and they're ready to go and perform on the next stage.
This is not something whereby we simply cram them into a box, shut the doors, close our noses and close our eyes. This doesn't work that way. We care for these animals from the day they arrive to the day they leave.
If there were an amendment, I believe we'd need between 36 and 48 months of time post coming into force. That gives us the opportunity to address just the foals.
Currently, we do not have the domestic slaughter capacity to transform these horses. We do not. There's one family in Quebec that has a licence. The last I checked with them, they were processing horses only once every four weeks.
Where are we going to go with these horses? Are we going to go to the south or to the north?
We have tried to look at other avenues to get domestic capacity, and every single slaughterhouse and processing plant that we have gone to has stood and looked at us, and said, “Kevin, why would we invest that kind of money, so that we can have activists at the gate when we're trying to provide a service to our fellow business people? We do not want to bring that on our families and in our community.” That's why they will not invest in a slaughterhouse. Multiple people have said, “Kevin, if you buy it and build it, we will run it for you, but we don't want to have a cent invested in it.”
On the economic impact to our region, we pay $1.8 million in salaries at my business. If this goes away, I will have to lay off five of my full-time staff.
Liberal
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Watson, I gather that you aren't necessarily against the slaughter of horses. However, you're criticizing the transportation conditions.
What do you think about the transportation conditions being reviewed and improved?
Veterinarian, As an Individual
I'm not sure whether the transportation conditions could be satisfactorily improved so that it would continue to be a financially viable business for the people who partake in it.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Mr. Serrien explained earlier that certain modes of transportation may be more comfortable. They do exist, and it's possible. However, you think that this wouldn't be profitable.
Is that right?