Agriculture Committee on March 21st, 2024

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the witnesses who are with us here today.

Mr. Wilson, you were pretty clear that you weren't consulted. I found it interesting that one of the main issues that we brought up was from first nations and Métis communities, who were also not consulted at all. We had a Métis witness here today, and none of them asked her any questions.

What did you feel was the level of consultation before this bill was tabled in the House of Commons, before it came to this committee? Was there any consultation before this was tabled, and what has been the consultation afterwards?

[Kevin Wilson]

Our experience has been that from the get-go, in the set-out of this bill, the opposition never addressed the indigenous component, because they didn't believe that it existed.

Bill and I represent many exporters at this table. We deal with Mohawk, Ojibwa and the Métis Nation of Alberta. Prior to this coming to Parliament, I don't think they realized what they were doing, because they claimed it was a small business that only four people were involved in.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Have you been consulted in the meantime or before by Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada?

[Kevin Wilson]

Yes, we were.

We had one Zoom meeting that lasted 45 minutes. Prior to the conclusion of that meeting, many members of the AAFC logged off the Zoom call.

I extended an invite to come to our facility in eastern Canada to witness how these horses are raised, how they are transported from the breeders to the feedlots and so on, from here to the airports. They did accept my invitation. However, when it came time to schedule it, everybody's schedules conflicted on their end.

We offered them footage of these horses in flight, to which they responded that they were not able to look at it.

We left that meeting very disheartened. We did not feel that they understood the whole scope of our industry. As I said in our opening statement, 45 minutes is not enough to talk about the impact on the veterinarians, the feed companies, the transportation companies and the staff who work at these facilities.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

If I'm getting you, no one from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada has taken you up on the invitation to participate in a flight and come and watch the loading and unloading. That has never happened.

[Kevin Wilson]

No, it has not.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

We heard some testimony prior to this, in the previous hour, that there's this cloak of secrecy over what goes on and the redacting of all this information.

It sounds to me like your association is quite open and transparent in inviting important officials who should have a working knowledge of how this works. You've been open to allowing them to see first-hand what's going on; they just haven't taken you up on that invitation.

Is that fair?

[Kevin Wilson]

We have offered to take them to the breeders of these horses out in western Canada, to visit the pastures where these foals are grown and raised on the mares.

We have offered to take them to the airplane to watch the loading of these horses. We have offered to take them to multiple feedlots where these horses are raised. The answer was always that they'll get back to us.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Mr. Serrien, thank you very much.

I would like to ask you a similar question. What was the level of consultation for your organization from the government, prior to this bill's being tabled in the House?

[Kenneth Serrien]

There was none.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

The Animal Transportation Association mentioned this in their submission. I want to quote this very quickly. They state:

Logistically, Bill C-355 will pose significant challenges for equine transporters and airlines operating in Canada. The requirement stipulating that every horse departing Canada via air transportation must be verified to not be intended for meat processing before export is unprecedented and introduces complexities not seen in other countries. This requirement imposes an additional burden on equine transporters and airlines, necessitating thorough verification processes to ensure compliance.

As an operator whose business is focused on this transportation, not only here but internationally, would you agree with this statement? Would you like to expand on the impact that this will have on the transportation industry, for example, on CBSA or airline pilots?

[Kenneth Serrien]

Yes, I agree with this statement.

In my personal opinion and in my colleagues' opinions, I think giving the declaration into the hands of CBSA over airline pilots—as I stated—is wrong. The only government agency that should be looking at this and making these decisions is the CFIA. They're the only ones that are responsible for this in their mandate and have the experience to check animal welfare and the fitness of these horses being flown. That's our opinion. The job of pilots is to fly the plane, honestly, and the CBSA are customs officers. They don't have the experience to make decisions concerning animal welfare if these horses are going for slaughter, if they're support horses or companion horses, or if they're unfit to travel. That's in my opinion.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Yes, to have that $250,000 fine on pilots, I would think, would make it quite onerous for pilots to take on that responsibility.

[Kenneth Serrien]

That's correct, yes.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I have 20 seconds or so.

Lastly, one of the experts allegedly said that one of the welfare issues for horses is that they do not have the ability to lie down and rest during transportation. In your experience, is that something that horses are wanting to do during transportation—to lie down? What is your opinion on that?

[Kenneth Serrien]

No, we do not want the horses to lie down. If that's happening, then the horse is in distress. We always want the horses to be standing up in their stalls to make sure that we can properly feed and water them. In our opinion, if they go down for a second time, then we have a conversation with the pilot, with the airline operation centre. We have to make an emergency landing in order to safely offload the horse and make sure there is no indication of distress. We do not want to have the horses lie down.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Serrien. That's very clear.

Go ahead, Mr. Carr, for six minutes.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Dr. Watson, you are the past president of the Manitoba veterinary association, vice-chair of the Winnipeg Humane Society, and owner of one of Manitoba's largest and most successful veterinary clinics.

You dedicate a substantial amount of your time to pro bono work alongside indigenous communities in northern Manitoba, for which you are frequently recognized.

Also, you are the recipient of the Global Animal Welfare Award, one of six people in the entire world on an annual basis who receive that award. I would challenge anybody here to question your credibility as an animal welfare expert in light of those credentials.

Very quickly, Dr. Watson, do you support this bill as an animal welfare expert, because you believe the current practice is contrary to the welfare of horses?

[Dr. Jonas Watson]

Yes, I support this bill for those reasons. I'm not here representing anyone else but myself as a veterinarian and someone who cares about animal welfare.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Dr. Watson.

The Conservative witness, Mr. Wilson, who a moment ago said that 100% of animal welfare experts agree that this bill is wrong, may need to adjust the percentage that he used in the categorization of that.

Dr. Watson, can you expand, please, on how the anatomy of horses makes them more susceptible to imbalance and stress during air travel compared to other animals?

[Dr. Jonas Watson]

The draft horses that we're talking about in question here are tall animals with a high centre of gravity. Over as long a flight as we're talking about, they can become fatigued during that travel and would be inclined to rest in one of two ways. One would be standing on three legs, a tripod, which can be hard to do while maintaining balance in a moving airplane. The other would be lying down, which we may not want them to do. However, that would require the horse's inclination to lie down. Of course, horses prefer to not lie down in an unfamiliar environment, with noisy stimulation. We end up with two options, neither of which is great, and that leads to horses that don't properly rest on a plane in transport. Consequently we end up with horses that are exhausted, potentially injured and potentially lame at the end of that travel.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I know there have been lots of conversations throughout the course of this conversation this morning about facts, and science is based on the premise that facts can be presented and interpreted differently. Clearly, there are different interpretations of facts that have been put before us. I completely reject the premise that a fact only must be interpreted in one way. Clearly, as an animal welfare expert, you have expressed a difference of opinion from some of those we've heard from.

Can you share with us, Dr. Watson, in conversations that you've had with your colleagues in Manitoba, across the country, and internationally, the opinions they may have had on this particular piece of legislation? If they are in support of the legislation, how it is that they have come to that conclusion based on the scientific veterinary medical expertise that you have provided here this afternoon?

[Dr. Jonas Watson]

I have heard some people involved in this process talk about “the” set of facts, or some people have said that there seems to be no clear science on some of these issues. The literature is filled with lots of studies, many publications, including very recent research on horses and the transport of them by air and other means. There is a lot of information out there. I have certainly consulted with colleagues of mine from the equine world and also government vets, many of whom are opposed to this practice of transporting animals such long distances. In this capacity, most of them think there are many shortcomings to the way we are doing it.

If anyone is looking for even just one example of a very robust summary of horse export, the European Food Safety Authority put together a panel on animal health and welfare in 2022, I think, and published a document called “Welfare of equidae during transport”. It references many published studies on horse transport, and the document produces many recommendations on how to handle horses in transport by air and other means.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Dr. Watson, I have about a minute left.

We've heard a lot of talk about the mortality rate being low, and that being used as the justification or the basis through which we should be analyzing the current practice. Do you, as a veterinary professional and as a world-recognized animal welfare expert, think that it is fair or responsible that the mortality rate of an animal should be the only consideration we have when talking about the overall health, safety and well-being of that animal?

[Dr. Jonas Watson]

If the barometer for animal welfare is how many horses are dead at the end—that is the measure we look at—that is shameful. I would be embarrassed to cite that publicly, because that suggests a total disconnect from an understanding of animal welfare. Of course, there are many other parameters to animal welfare beyond whether a horse or other animal lives or dies. I would be embarrassed to cite low mortality rates as some sort of justification for any kind of conduct related to export or anything else.