Evidence of meeting #96 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was animals.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Animal Care and Welfare Specialist, J Woods Livestock Services
They are attended to, so yes, that is false.
The attendants are experienced horse people. They are the same as the ones who are travelling with the other horses.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
When these horses were being loaded, you said you visually saw this, and it was not through a video, so you were actually on the ground watching these horses being loaded. Is that correct? You said it took 17 seconds in Winnipeg and 22 seconds for three in a crate in Calgary.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Did you see any signs of stress when these horses were being loaded?
11:45 a.m.
Animal Care and Welfare Specialist, J Woods Livestock Services
No.
Actually, I may see more signs of stress when the attendants are trying to put horses in the stalls. Horses are claustrophobic by nature. They don't like to go into small, enclosed places, so when you put them in the crates with friends, they actually load quite quickly.
I have the video, and I am happy to show you the video I have taken right there when the horses are loaded in the crates, and how they're loaded. Yes, that's our average time to load.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you very much.
I know my Liberal colleague keeps wanting to interrupt me, because she is upset about these actual facts, but can you tell me—
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Mr. Steinley, I'm going to stop you there. I've stopped the clock. It's at 3:30, and we'll hold on there. There was a bit of back-and-forth on both sides, so let's make sure we keep it between you and the witness. I'll ask my colleagues to keep their comments to themselves or to take it outside.
Go ahead, Mr. Steinley.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
I don't think we have to go outside. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I do want to get this on the record as factual information from someone who has been there rather than just seeing videos or hearing hearsay. I want to make sure, because one of the witnesses said we aren't meeting this national standard.
Could you correct that statement, Ms. Woods?
11:45 a.m.
Animal Care and Welfare Specialist, J Woods Livestock Services
Yes. We are meeting national standards based on 45 animal welfare audits that incorporate all the regulations internationally and domestically.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
In your opinion, what does this bill actually mean to do? Do you believe this is a slippery slope and that we're talking about trying to end animal agriculture?
11:45 a.m.
Animal Care and Welfare Specialist, J Woods Livestock Services
I do. I believe this is a precedent that has been intended to be set. One of the big proponents of this bill, responsible for the petition, states on its website, when asked why it advocates for horses only, that it considers horses pivotal in this movement. It says that if society and our lawmakers can agree that we shouldn't slaughter or eat horses, logically, the next step will be to examine the welfare of all animals for food.
When asked the question directly in relation to Bill C-355 on whether the bill wouldn't have been more effective if the statement “by air” had not been part of it, the answer in part is that it has been their experience that if their ask too much from the government, they risk getting none of it. They say small steps are more effective in achieving their goals, because there is less of industry convincing their leaders that the steps being taken are too drastic and unfair.
They go on to say that when Bill C-355 becomes law, the Canadian Horse Defence Coalition and other like-minded organizations will continue to defend horses from slaughter and export for the same purposes by any means of transport.
As the old adage goes, “If they tell you who they are, believe them.” It has been directly stated that this is to set a precedent.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you very much.
Witness 1, have you had a conversation with the member who brought this bill forward before today?
11:45 a.m.
As an Individual
I was at a meeting that he had. I was not invited by him. I was invited by some other members who were meeting with him.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you for being here.
I grew up on a farm and love animals. We treated our animals very well.
Could you talk about how your horses are treated? Growing up, we'd go out in calving season or foaling season and be there to make sure everything was okay. Could you talk a bit about the way you treat your animals when they're being born and when you're raising them? They're part of the family.
11:45 a.m.
As an Individual
That's right.
I often ask, during calving and foaling season, where's my advocacy group? Who's going to rescue me?
It's the loss of sleep and time, and it's injury. We spend tens of thousands of dollars on veterinary bills, medicine, equine therapy, chiropractic care and dentistry on our horses, as well as on farriers.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
We're at time, unfortunately, Mr. Steinley.
Thank you to Witness 1.
We'll now turn to Mr. Louis for up to five minutes.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you, and I want to thank all the witnesses for being here, both in person and online.
I'd like to direct my questions right now to Dr. Samson-French.
With 35 years as a vet, you certainly have very strong credentials. You said that you've been to the Calgary airport. You've witnessed this first-hand, so it's important to have this testimony.
I did see you taking lots of notes, as if you were able to respond. In this format, it's a bit more controlled. I thought I would give you the chance to address some of the things you heard, and to respond, as you were taking notes there.
11:50 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
I have some grave reservations about how amazing the regulations and the observance of the regulations are in the case of these horses.
I've observed several times the loading of horses into the crates. First, I've seen crates standing at the Calgary airport for hours and hours at -20°C. I don't know how that fits into animal welfare. When they're loaded into the airplane, which I've seen, it's through the side door. In Japan, they've been unloaded through the front.
We have—I don't know—one or two attendants, and yes, they can walk up and down the aisle. I've accompanied lots of loads of other animals in transport, notably ostriches, which were not easy. All these crates are wrapped in ropes. How could anyone safely access any animals in distress in there?
We're also talking about show horses being transported in there. They're usually plied with food and water, especially at landing or takeoff, to distract them so that they don't really realize what's going on with the change in air pressure. They usually have their legs wrapped, which is my main concern with these other horses. During takeoffs and landings they are trying to keep their balance and all trampling on one another. At the very least, I can't even imagine that horses are transported without their legs being wrapped.
Again, if the standards are so high.... When I ask questions and I forward the information about all of these things, everything is redacted. To measure mortality as our animal welfare basis—the mortality is really low—is setting the bar extremely low, not accounting for dehydration, exhaustion or injuries. If we're saying for animals—and 50% of them are insured—that we have zero per cent mortality, well, that's setting the bar very low for animal welfare. Those are the reports that are not getting to us.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
I thank you for that.
We've heard it said today that there's no difference between the export of live horses by air for slaughter and the transportation of horses for sport, competition, recreation or show.
Is there any validity to that? Could it be mistaken that this condition is even remotely close?
11:50 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
It's not even remotely close.
Those horses from Spruce Meadows are worth a fortune. There is no way they're loading three to four horses into a crate, saying, “Good luck, we'll see you on landing,” and wrapping the crates with ropes so no one can get into them. To me, the wrapping with the ropes allows an attendant only to kill a horse in the case of a horse trying to kick through a crate at that point. We're not talking about the same welfare for shipping horses for show compared with shipping horses for meat at this point—absolutely not.
To me, dehydration is big. We know from science that if an animal doesn't get water for 24 hours, we're going to see clinical signs of dehydration. Well, when we look at the loading of these horses from the feedlot in Alberta all the way to Japan, we're just at the limit of 28 hours. Are we assuming that all these horses took copious amounts of water and feed the minute before they were loaded? It can be four to six hours, and some prefer not to give them food and water, in order to prevent too much manure and urination from happening.
No, we're not talking about the same thing at all.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Thank you, Mr. Louis.
Mr. Perron, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.
11:50 a.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank Witness 1 for joining us. I want to ask the witness a question.
In the first round of questions, I asked many questions about standards.
Is it possible to improve transportation standards? Do you think that it would be economically viable to invest more resources in this area?
March 21st, 2024 / 11:50 a.m.
As an Individual
I'm not so involved with transportation standards. We do transport a lot of horses by trailer, and if the transport standards are being met and exceeded, I don't see why we need to throw more money at them.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you.
Do you think that this bill could set a precedent?
If passed, do you think that it could lead to an increase in local horse meat consumption?
Is ground transportation a possibility, for example? Right now, the ban applies only to air transportation.