Agriculture Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 96 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-food. I'm going to start with a few reminders.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Colleagues, as you know, this first panel will be audio only.

Screenshots and taking photos of your screen are not permitted.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, January 31, 2024, and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, February 8, 2024, the committee is resuming its consideration of Bill C-355, an act to prohibit the export by air of horses for slaughter and to make related amendments to certain acts.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for this first panel. We have Witness 1, and I remind colleagues to refer to this witness as Witness 1 at all times during the proceedings. That person is appearing as an individual. Also appearing as an individual is Dr. Judith Samson-French, a practising veterinarian at Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, who is joining us by video conference. From J Woods Livestock Services, Jennifer Woods is an animal care and welfare specialist who is joining us here in the room.

Thank you, Ms. Woods, for being here.

Welcome, everyone.

I'm going to provide up to five minutes for opening remarks for each witness, and then we're going to turn it over for questions.

I'd like to start with Witness 1.

I'll turn it over to you. Go ahead, please.

[Witness-Témoin 1, As an Individual]

Good morning.

I live in western Canada with my husband and children. We keep horses and cattle on our farm. My children and I have our Métis status recognized by our provincial Métis nation. I'm here to provide an indigenous perspective on the meat horse industry in Canada.

Regarding remarks made in the February 13 hearing of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-food, I can see that there is a staggering amount of ignorance about indigenous culture in regard to the care and respect of indigenous-owned horses.

In the past, indigenous people depended on horses for their survival. We, the Métis, used horses every day for farming, transportation and traplines, and we rode them into battle during the North-West Rebellion.

With colonization, the way indigenous people lived changed drastically. However, there remain a tradition, a culture and a connection with horses. I'm trying to keep Métis tradition, including working with horses, and pass it on to my children.

Just like most Métis, we are not in a position financially to keep horses only for recreational use. Our farm is not sustainable without the meat horse industry. Raising and owning horses involves a lot of hard work, and it's very expensive, but we think it's worth it. Selling draft foals to our exporter allows us to keep and maintain horses for farming, to feed livestock, to handle cattle, to trap, to train and to connect with Métis and first nations communities through horse trading and rallies.

Other indigenous producers are involved in chuckwagon racing, rodeo stock contracting, Indian relay, and training and marketing performance horses. As I'm sure you know, the land for Indian reserves and Métis settlements is not prime real estate or farmland, but raising horses is a way to make our land into something profitable.

The Canadian government is ignoring the impact that banning meat horse exports will have on many Métis and first nations producers. There's been no consultation with indigenous producers and people regarding the plan to ban the export of live horses. The Canadian government has a history of stepping on indigenous farmers, including through the peasant farm policy. The peasant farm policy was how the Canadian government restricted first nations farmers to basic farming tools and practices in order to limit their success, so that white settlers would not have to compete with them. Then, as punishment for the North-West Rebellion, which was started when the Canadian government annexed Métis land, indigenous producers' markets were restricted by the Canadian government, so that crippled their ability to provide for themselves.

If the federal government wanted to again shackle indigenous farmers, banning the export of meat horses would be an extremely effective way of doing that. The ability to export our horses has given our farming practices a much-needed financial boost and enabled our family to continue to embrace our Métis tradition and culture.

We think it is important that Métis and first nations producers retain autonomy in their agricultural practices and that they be able to maintain and cultivate their connection to horses. Our voices are being drowned out and suppressed by people who do not have any evidence or facts to support their claims.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much.

We'll now turn to Ms. Woods, for up to five minutes, please.

[Jennifer Woods, Animal Care and Welfare Specialist, J Woods Livestock Services]

I would like to thank the committee for allowing me to share my experience on this topic regarding the export of horses to Japan for consumption.

I have provided a full list of my equine-focused work in my briefing, but I would like to quickly hit on the most relevant ones to this topic.

I currently sit on the task force for sections CR2 and CR3 of the live animal regulations for the International Air Transport Association. Most notably, I am one of eight people from around the world who were invited to participate in the working committee charged with updating the World Organization for Animal Health terrestrial chapter for the transport of animals by land, sea and air.

In 2005, I started working with Canadian horse processing facilities and airports that export horses. This work has included facility design, audits and animal welfare program development. In 2017 I started performing animal welfare audits for the export of horses to Japan, and in 2019 I travelled to Japan to audit the feedlots and processing plants.

As I know this committee is concerned with determining what best upholds Canadian interests and the welfare of exported horses, I wanted to offer my unique perspective from actually having made the trip to Japan to audit conditions there. I want to briefly touch on how the current regulations and high standards allow for the welfare of the animals to be considered and upheld in every step of this carefully coordinated process.

These rigorous regulations have resulted in an exceptionally low mortality rate of just 0.011% over the past 11 years. The information I am sharing with you today, and what I have shared in my brief, is based on science, evidence and years of research into best practices to ensure proper animal welfare for exported horses, by me and other experts who have similarly dedicated their lives to the safe transport of all animals, including horses.

After arriving from the farm, horses are unloaded into crates that exceed the required spacing requirements. These crates allow them to shift, brace and freely move their heads up and down. They are transported as a group with the same horses they have lived with for months, if not for their entire lives. They are not held in stalls, which helps them to remain calm on the flight. They do not travel unattended, but with highly trained and capable attendants.

As I explain in my brief, pre-COVID, almost all flights to Japan were direct. January just saw the first direct flight since COVID. The shippers and airlines are working on fully reinstating direct flights soon.

The average time horses spend off feed, water and rest is 22.5 hours from Edmonton and 26.5 hours from Winnipeg, which is under the allowable time. As required by existing law, contingency plans, in collaboration with the CFIA, are in place if the trip exceeds this due to extraordinary circumstances, such as extreme weather. Luckily, this is a very rare occurrence.

Once arriving in Japan, the conditions of the horses are assessed, and they're immediately offloaded onto transfer trailers to be taken to the quarantine facilities, which are all within an hour of the airport. Veterinarians are at the airport for the arrival and transfer of horses.

As previously mentioned, injuries and mortalities of horses on these flights are exceptionally rare. The last horse off the flight is back on feed, water and rest within two hours of landing. There is continuous communication between Japan and the exporters and shippers throughout the entire process.

After two weeks of being cared for and monitored by veterinarians in the quarantine facility, the horses are taken to the feedlot. As an expert who has personally audited these feedlots, I can confidently say they are incredibly well maintained, and the horses are very well cared for, reflecting the high regard that Japan holds for horses. These feedlots meet or exceed Canadian standards of care.

Additionally, the slaughter plants also pass the audit based on Canadian standards.

Members of this committee and other Canadians can be confident in the current strict regulations on the export of horses for consumption. Not only is this a legitimate agricultural business that is in full compliance with strict Canadian regulations and international standards, but it upholds what we know to be true about horse welfare from research and experts dedicated to the subject.

I once again want to thank the committee for having me here today, and I am pleased to answer any questions or provide more information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you very much, Ms. Woods.

We'll turn to Ms. Samson-French for up to five minutes, please.

[Dr. Judith Samson-French, Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual]

Thank you for having me at the committee.

I am a practising veterinarian of 35 years. I've worked with large and small animals. I have included equine veterinary medicine and surgery for over 12 years in my practice. I have worked with import and export of animals as well. I have also worked in a horse slaughterhouse. I am one of very few veterinarians in Canada to have done so. I know some about horses, transport of animals and slaughter.

Obviously, animal welfare is a mandate of veterinarians. It is our mandate to find it unacceptable to abuse animals. That's a no-brainer for us. To put it clearly, as a veterinarian, it is a given that animals should have a life worth living, not worth avoiding, and a peaceful, painless death. Obviously, standing against either part of this statement makes one a monster and certainly goes against our veterinary oath. For this bill, however, Bill C-355, we will concentrate only on the second part, the peaceful, painless death.

The slaughter in Japan is unknown to us, because CFIA has no jurisdiction there. It's problematic not knowing how, not whether. We're not discussing whether slaughter should happen.

The transport issue focuses from feedlot to airport to loading in the belly of an airplane to Japan via one stop or two in Alaska to a quarantine station.

Before going into details of the Canadian horse transport by air, the objection is not about slaughter but about getting to slaughter. For best animal welfare, animals should be slaughtered as close as possible to where they are farmed. This issue is not new. Australia is already raising concerns about sending sheep and cattle to slaughter on gigantic freighter ships for a long journey to be slaughtered in Asia and Africa. The transport is also the issue, not the slaughter. Australia is trying to phase out live transport.

Similarly, in the U.K., the animal welfare bill on livestock export is also looking at phasing out any air transport for slaughter. Going after the air transport of animals for slaughter is not a slippery slope for agriculture. I know some will raise the concern that if we ban live exports, there will be something else the public will put pressure on after that.

My contention is that this is in no way a slippery slope, but the opposite, because live export has raised big concerns and has shed much light on how we treat animals. The message should be clear that the live export of horses should be stopped so it doesn't tarnish the entire agricultural industry. Right now it is a matter of public concern and, really, why is it not the farmer's concern?

Let's jump into the transport issue itself.

By the way, I have gone to the Calgary airport three times. I was alerted that this was happening, and I could not believe that we didn't send horses straight to Bouvry. I'm from Calgary. Obviously we didn't send them straight to Bouvry slaughterhouse.

I have gone to the airport three times to watch the loading of horses into crates. I did it three times because I thought what I saw the first time was an aberration. I also watched several videos of horses in Japan being unloaded. The staff there is or was clearly untrained. I saw videos of horses being hit in the head with white paddles while they were still in the crate at unloading. They had no escape room, and that's certainly not the way to handle flight animals. What we're showing the world here is that, with the live export of horses, we do not prioritize animal welfare, which is quite the opposite to sending them to slaughter.

The World Organisation for Animal Health, the OIE, mandates specific standards for humane equine transport that include segregation of horses, emergency access and provision of food and water for a journey over six hours. Canada is a member of the OIE, but we do not comply with those regulations. It is clear that our existing transport and cruelty laws are not enough to protect horses exported by air for slaughter. In addition, the weak laws are not even enforced if flights go over time limits and abuse is reported. In Calgary, if we add up all the time, we're very, very close to 28 hours. If we have bad weather, that takes it over the permitted time.

Let's dive into the specific welfare issues of the live export.

Number one is overcrowding. Overcrowding occurs due to the number of animals in the container. The animal cannot maintain its preferred position or adjust its body position in order to protect itself from injuries or avoid being crushed or trampled.

This is a glaring omission of welfare standards in live export, because if a horse is fatigued, hurt or just prefers to lie down, it can't do so. I've observed that in animals such as ostriches.

If, on takeoff, the horse that's in the back lies down, all the other horses are going to trample it. On landing, if a horse goes down at the front, the other horses will trample it. It's very difficult for a horse to get up if it is overcrowded, because it needs forward and backward movement as well as lateral movement.

Number two—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Dr. Samson-French, we're about 30 seconds over time for the five minutes. I want to allow you to have a quick moment to finish, but we are at time, so please wrap up in 30 seconds so we can get to questions.

I know people want to dig into your—

[Dr. Judith Samson-French]

I'm sorry about that. I thought it was five to 10 minutes.

Mainly, these are horses that are kept in feedlots; they are not conditioned or trained for transport, like other horses that are not destined for live export. These horses have received minimal human handling, having been fattened in feedlots. They are easily panicked and frightened at unloading, with the loud clanking noises and humans poking them with flags while they're still in the stock trailers, which I've witnessed.

Can I give a quick conclusion? No, I've passed it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Yes, we're at time. I'm sorry. I know my honourable colleagues will want to engage and ask, so you'll have the chance to expand on your answers.

We are going to get to questions.

Mr. Barlow, I believe you're up first for up to six minutes.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thanks, Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for being here.

My first question would be for Witness 1.

Thank you very much for your testimony. You mentioned the lack of consultation.

Were you consulted at all about the legislation that is before us today?

[Witness-Témoin 1]

No. It's very frustrating.

Even more frustrating is MPs saying that they have consulted indigenous producers, when that has not happened. There are protocols and policies surrounding indigenous consultation, and that process has not been initiated.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you.

You mentioned in your comment the lack of knowledge of this industry and its impact on first nations and Métis communities specifically.

We had a comment from one of our colleagues, who said, “I would object to referring to the Métis traditions and cultures as though somehow this is consistent with indigenous culture and traditions.” One of the members of this committee made that comment when we mentioned the impact this would have on first nations and Métis producers and breeders specifically.

Is that what you were talking about regarding the lack of understanding of the impact on you as a producer and of the Métis culture?

[Witness-Témoin 1]

Yes. The knowledge behind horses and indigenous culture and tradition is hard to compound into this small time frame, but those statements were very uneducated and do not represent the Métis culture or tradition.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

I know it's probably difficult to narrow it down, but what would be the impact on your livelihood and your business—financially or morally with your family—if this legislation were to pass?

[Witness-Témoin 1]

Our farm is multi-faceted. We have a lot of things to do to keep it running and keep it together.

Raising draft colts is just one piece of our whole farm. All the pieces work together to make the whole farm. Without all of these pieces working together, our farm isn't sustainable.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you. I know it's not easy to go through that.

My next question is for Ms. Woods.

Thank you very much for bringing your expertise here today.

We've heard a lot of testimony from other groups, but in your estimation, as one of the global experts on this issue, who should we believe when it comes to animal welfare in what is currently being done in Canada with the live horse transport to Japan?

It seems like we are not just meeting but exceeding international standards.

Is that correct?

[Jennifer Woods]

Yes, it is.

I think we should listen to the experts and the people who are there, like the government, which oversees enforcement, and people like me, who work in welfare. I'm there. I'm right up front. I'm standing there. I'm not from afar; I'm in there with the animals. I've been to Japan. I've been to the feedlots. I have been to the slaughter plants.

If anybody knows anything about Japanese culture, they'll know they're very finicky. We know that the Japanese, as a country we export to, have very high standards. I do not have concerns about the care of the animals there at all.

I think we need to look more at the research, at the science and at the facts.

It's continually said that the animals are cramped, yet nobody has ever given us a square footage. You're saying they're cramped, but what does cramped even mean?

A regulation or a bill is being based on the comment about being cramped, when our animals actually exceed the required space. With the requirements of IATA, the Health of Animals Act, research done by Dr. Terry Whiting here in Canada, the code of practice for Canada and EC No 1/2005 for adult horses, we give them more room.

You also don't want to give them too much room. The last thing you ever want to have your horse do during transport is lie down. No standard says an animal should have the ability to lie down and rest. Horses actually don't want to lie down.

That's what we need to be listening to. That's the science.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

We've had a lot of claims from some of the witnesses. I'm going to throw these by you, and just give me a quick “true or false” answer so I can get through these as quickly as I can in the time available.

One of the claims is that there is clear, scientific evidence for a ban on the export of live horses for slaughter. Is that true or false?

[Jennifer Woods]

It's false.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

There's clear and compelling scientific evidence showing that horses exported from Canada for slaughter overseas experience significant physical and psychological suffering due to the duration and conditions of transport. Is that true or false?

[Jennifer Woods]

That's false.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Canada's animal transportation standards are among the worst in the western world. Is that true or false?

[Jennifer Woods]

That's very false.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Horses transported for slaughter are in conditions far worse than the conditions of other horses, such as those exported for sport or breeding. Is that true or false?

[Jennifer Woods]

That's false, and I'm familiar with both.