Evidence of meeting #96 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was animals.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
You commented on the term “cramped”, so I appreciate that.
In my last 30 seconds, I wanted to ask a question to Dr. Samson-French.
In a 2021 interview with CTV, you were asked whether or not there's a humane way to transport live horses to Japan by air, and you said absolutely, it can be done. We just choose not to do it with these horses, to keep costs down.
Why is this bill not focused on the conditions or the regulations around the transport of horses, if it can be done safely?
11:20 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
We have been trying to push for regulations that would help the horses. Number one, I agree that horses should not be going down, and that's a default: If the horse is injured it's going to be a problem on take-off and landing. Having a partition to withers height would protect the horses from many injuries. That's how it can be done securely, so when we're promoting—
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
John Barlow Conservative Foothills, AB
We can do it safely, then. We just need to change the regulations, not ban it. Thank you.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here.
There is clearly a difference of opinion on whether the welfare of horses is actually endangered in the transport or whether these horses are stressed.
We heard the opinions, which were put forward as facts, but since there are many different opinions on this, I'm wondering whether perhaps, Dr. Samson-French, you can talk a bit about the effects air transport has on horses when they are shipped in these large containers. I know you weren't finished with your remarks, so perhaps you could finish those and talk a little about the welfare of animals, because we're all concerned about animal welfare. We know our farmers are, as well, so I think the experience you bring, as well, is valuable, and as I said before, there's not one set of facts. There are different opinions on this.
11:25 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
Thank you. About changing the regulations as opposed to banning it, the problem is we have not been able to have the space to change anything about the regulations beyond withers height, and also I've seen at the airport how many horses, when they hold their head in a natural position, are actually touching, or their ears are exceeding the top of the net.
My contention, certainly, after working with horses, and I've been injured by working with horses for over 12 years, is the unloading of horses.... When the horses arrived at the Calgary airport, for example, I was flabbergasted to see that the horses did not want to come down the ramp from the truck, because they had not been conditioned. They don't know what's happening, because they are raised in feedlots. The handlers have to scream and use thick poles all along the sides of the trailers from both sides to jab them and hurt them to get them going. The sounds are absolutely foreign to these horses. They've never been conditioned to hearing that. They're in panic mode. You can see the whites of their eyes. They're moving forward. They're moving backwards. They're clanking doors to prevent them from getting back into the truck.
I'm not sure how we are able to even ensure that they are compatible, because the horses are coming unloaded. However, they are on the ramp one by one, 40 horses or so in a trailer.
Once they're put into the containers, then we go and I just watch them, all the containers. For hours you hear horses banging and kicking into all the crates in there. Those horses are certainly not at peace. They're certainly not happy to be in there, and if they were compatible while they were in a feedlot under non-stressful conditions, under very stressful conditions they don't sound like they are compatible anymore.
That's why I object that animals.... These are flight animals. They're not conditioned or trained to be able to handle the stress of travel, which is one of the worst stresses in the life of an animal.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
My daughter is an equestrian, and I'm very familiar with horses. I rode as well. They are very sensitive. As well, you pointed out that the centre of gravity is higher for these animals.
How do you reconcile what you have seen and heard with the witness we just heard from, who clearly stated one thing—that horses being transported for show are treated the same as horses being transported for slaughter. I know for a fact that it's untrue, so I'm questioning some of the other testimony she gave.
Can you comment on that as well?
11:25 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
I've also been involved in that area. No, the ones transported for shows are divided. They have a partition where there's height.
The other witness mentioned, “Who should we believe in all this? I am the expert, and the government is the expert in this.” We have made countless requests with FOIP to get access to all the documents, and they come back incredibly redacted. We're not even able to follow what's happening. If the standards are so high, why are we hiding all the information when I am asking to talk to a vet at CFIA or to get the information? Why is it so incredibly redacted that I can't even figure out what's happening in there?
If the standards are high, show it to us. Don't hide it.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you.
I think there have been comments made that the regulations in place.... “We're in accordance with the regulations.” I think that's questionable. Even if that's the case, as you said, we're not compliant with the OIE and other standards. If that's the case, I feel it's incumbent upon us to look after the welfare of these animals. I know we don't want the public to look upon farmers and other people as being cruel to animals.
Why do you think it is that we're a member of the OIE and not in compliance with the regulations there?
11:30 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
We're not in compliance with the OIE. We're not even in compliance with our Health of Animals Act when it comes to animals that should not be touching the top of the crate. We are not in compliance with the IAT either, and we had to make a Canada exception to ship our horses in bulk in wooden crates, because we're not able to meet any of the regulations of the IATA. We had to make an exception for Canada so we can ship them by air. That doesn't make sense.
However, no matter what the IATA says and no matter...the Canadian exception, the horses should be compatible. They should be socialized. They should be able to stand in a natural position without their ears sticking out of the netting. In all cases, the horses should have enough room to maintain balance and rise without assistance if they lie down. There is no way they can lie down in there uninjured with two or three horses around them, or be able to move forward, backward and laterally.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Thank you, Ms. Taylor Roy.
Thank you, Ms. Samson-French.
Mr. Perron, you have the floor for six minutes.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today.
Ms. Samson‑French, you said that the standards aren't being met. However, we met with witnesses such as Dr. Ireland from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, or CFIA, who told us that standards were being met. We aren't sure who to believe.
When you said that the standards weren't being met, were you talking about Canadian transportation standards for livestock, or something else? Can you clarify this for us?
11:30 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
In terms of the standards, which may or may not be met, we're talking about the Health of Animals Act; the standards of the World Organisation for Animal Health, or WOAH; and the standards of the International Air Transport Association, or IATA. In the three cases, not all the rules are being followed. Some rules are followed, but not all. Yet compliance with all these rules should be the bare minimum.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
I want to make sure that I understand. The CFIA standards are being met, but the other standards aren't being met. In your opinion, these standards should be met.
Is that what you're saying?
11:30 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
Even in the case of the CFIA, inspectors should, before each shipment, ensure that the animal is fit to endure the planned journey, that it's in good health and that the transportation is safe.
How do you assess fitness for travel if an animal has a gash between its front legs? The animals are coming out of that truck in a chute so fast. It happens at night. If a horse has any injury under the whole body carriage, there's no way you can pick that up. Even our own CFIA is not able to regulate. We can't assess compatibility at the speed these animals are moving from the trucks onto the loading ramps and into the crates. That happens in seconds.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you.
We must respect the work of CFIA veterinarians. However, I understand your point of view, Ms. Samson‑French.
Basically, the 2019 regulatory changes aren't satisfactory. The transportation conditions require significant improvement.
Is that right?
11:30 a.m.
Veterinarian, Banded Peak Veterinary Hospital, As an Individual
That's right.
The changes made in 2019 were terrible. I saw horses left outside at the airport for 12 hours in -20 and -30 degrees Celsius. I saw horses over 14 hands in height transported together. The changes weren't sufficient at all.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you for your comments, Dr. Samson‑French.
As parliamentarians, we ask all the witnesses questions, and then assess each point of view.
Ms. Woods, you know the industry well. How do you respond when you hear people questioning things in this manner, when they say that the transportation conditions aren't good?
Do you think that there's still room for improvement?
11:30 a.m.
Animal Care and Welfare Specialist, J Woods Livestock Services
I find it very frustrating. For instance, on the topic of the animals not having enough room and our not meeting the standards, we actually meet the standards. Nobody has provided any information saying that we don't meet the standards set forth by IATA. I have information saying we do.
For horses going to Japan, it's three per crate, per IATA standards. They require 1.73 metres squared. We give them 2.12 metres squared, so we exceed IATA, the Health of Animals Act, Whiting research and codes of practice. We exceed them.
I find it very frustrating when we keep getting told they don't have room, but nobody has ever told us what room they believe they have. It's just that they look cramped. They have plenty of headroom. We are in full compliance with headroom in IATA standards. I sit on the CR2 and CR3 committees that write these standards. They just can't have continual contact with the roof. The ears of horses in stalls touch the roof of the stalls, so we are in compliance.
The information I provide you is based on me actually standing there, right at the trailer, alongside CFIA. CFIA might not know it, but I actually audit CFIA as part of my audit. I audit to our welfare standards. We see the fitness of the horses. I'm at the feedlot when those horses load out. Those horses live their lives together all the time. They don't suddenly become unfamiliar during the trailer ride.
One of the best ways that I try to explain this to people—and it's something that I actually document in my audit—is with the time to load. I time it from the minute the gate opens until the minute the gate closes on that crate. How long does it take to put those three horses in that crate? In Winnipeg, it's 17 seconds. In Calgary, it's about 22.5 seconds, because there's just a little more distance to walk.
You cannot cram three draft-sized horses that are unfamiliar and don't want to get along into a container in that amount of time.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Could the government consider further improving transportation conditions to satisfy people who find the rules insufficient?
People say that competition horses, for example, are transported in better conditions than other animals, and that the care is better organized.
Is that possible?
11:35 a.m.
Animal Care and Welfare Specialist, J Woods Livestock Services
There's always room for improvement everywhere.
My motto for my business is, “We learn better so we do better.”
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Kody Blois
Thank you, Mr. Perron.
Thank you, Ms. Woods.
Mr. MacGregor, you have the floor for six minutes.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for helping guide this committee through the study of this bill.
Witness 1, I'd like to start with you. Thank you for offering your perspective to this committee.
One of our previous witnesses mentioned that the export of live horses for slaughter is a relatively new industry in Canada. Can you tell the committee how long your family has been involved in this part of the business?