Agriculture Committee on April 9th, 2024

[Capt Tim Perry]

I think it is fair to say that it is unique, and I guess in that sense extraordinary. Yes, sir.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you.

To go back to you, Dr. Lawson, you stated in your letter from your organization that this legislation “could lead to unintended negative animal welfare consequences”. Could you expand on that and maybe give us a couple of examples? I believe you were talking about biosecurity specifically.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

You have about 30 seconds, Dr. Lawson. Thanks.

[Dr. Trevor Lawson]

Thank you.

Yes, there were concerns regarding what happens to the high-value animals that are already in the supply chain. We may very well see a reduced animal welfare standard for those animals.

The other concern CVMA has is that eliminating Canadian horses—which I think we have established have a very high standard of welfare—from this supply chain may ultimately, potentially, push the supply of these horses into domains that do not have standards as high as Canada's. There are a number of countries that would fall into that category.

I think we should be proud of our animal welfare standards and our accomplishments on transport to date, and continue to work to improve them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Ms. Taylor Roy, you're up for five minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses here today.

I want to start by saying this to you, Mr. Perry: I'm not going to be asking you questions, but I appreciate your input on how this bill could be improved to ensure we deal with the concerns of the airline industry. However, I don't think that's the crux of the bill.

I think we know that the majority of Canadians—including in Quebec, as Mr. Perron pointed out, where horsemeat is enjoyed more than in other regions of Canada—are strongly opposed to the continued practice of exporting live horses for slaughter. We've heard a number of different opinions.

I want to start by clarifying one thing, Mr. Lawson.

In your response to questions from Mr. Carr, you indicated that the position of your organization is based on evidence and a few veterinarians who were involved in your animal welfare committee. Mr. Barlow just stated that the 8,000 veterinarians you represent are all opposed to this bill.

Could you please confirm that all 8,000 veterinarians you represent are opposed to this bill?

[Dr. Trevor Lawson]

No, I think that would be incorrect. We have a very diverse membership. Obviously, we have members serving the companion animal community as well as those serving the food animal community. I think we would be close to getting as many opinions as we have members.

Ultimately, what I can attest to is that our members have a unified desire to see animal welfare improvements, regardless of the species, without bias, and that—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay, thank you. I don't have much time, Mr. Lawson.

Could you give me an estimate? Since you represent the entire organization, do you have any sense of how many of your members are opposed to or in favour of the bill?

[Dr. Trevor Lawson]

No, we do not have polling data. We don't have that done.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay. Therefore, you can't represent that the majority of your members are opposed to this bill.

[Dr. Trevor Lawson]

Certainly not. No.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you. I wanted to clarify that.

We've also heard, over the course of testimony on this very important bill, that there are different conclusions being drawn by people regarding animal welfare and the impact the transport of horses has on animal welfare.

I'd like to point out that there is evidence, and then there are conclusions. Conclusions drawn by certain people are no more valid than conclusions drawn by other people, other than the fact that they may have expertise.

Dr. Dodman, I'm very glad to see you here today, given that you're a behaviourist and you've worked with thousands of horses. I'm wondering if you could comment on some of the conclusions that have been drawn by other witnesses, who have said that the quality of life of these horses is good and that transport is not detrimental to them or threatens them in any way.

Perhaps you could comment on that for me from your perspective of 25 years of experience and teaching in this field.

[Dr. Nicholas Dodman]

It's more like 50.

I think it's the same with the issue of horse slaughter. For reasons I think I understand, most veterinary organizations, such as the AVMA and the American Association of Equine Practitioners, come out against the sensible and humane solution, and now, I hear, the Canadian group. Somehow these organizations, working hand in glove with industry....

The veterinarians' motto is to first do the right thing by society, which is generating food, as opposed to thinking of the animal. I think that's the reason they come to these conclusions. It's just that their perspective is entirely different. They will interpret things in a rosy light, when in fact we know, for example, in air transport, that there have been a number of deaths and injuries, and that these are only the tip of the iceberg. Death is a pretty serious result of transportation.

While it may be improving, it doesn't seem to be improving that much. I think it is like beauty: It's in the eye of the beholder. When I look at it, I think it's inhumane, and so does my group.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Right. You've represented that all 7,000 veterinarians who are part of your group are opposed to this bill. Is that correct?

[Dr. Nicholas Dodman]

That's correct. I spoke yesterday to the leader of the group. I told her that I would like to make that statement and asked if that was accurate. She said yes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

You mentioned that you think many of the veterinarians who work with the industry are inclined to support this continued practice because it has to do with the provision of food. The majority of the horses that are transported to Japan are for food purposes. It's providing something called basashi, which is a very high-end, very gourmet type of product that is valued greatly.

Do you feel that this purpose or this commitment to ensuring that food is provided is consistent with the overall philosophy that we're transporting animals to feed the masses?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Ms. Taylor Roy, we're way over time.

Dr. Dodman, be very quick, if you could. Go ahead. I try to be gracious, but we're very tight for time.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[Dr. Nicholas Dodman]

I think the end product is for a niche, for 1% of Japan. It's not that you're feeding the masses, as you say.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

I'll go now to Yves and then Alistair.

You guys were both a little bit over time, so I'll ask you to keep it tight, please, with a 45-second question and a 45-second response.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Demianowicz, what do you think of the amendments proposed by Mr. Perry, specifically, the removal of restrictions on pilots and the possibility of placing fewer administrative burdens on them so they can focus more on flight safety than on animal welfare? That's not really part of their job, after all.

[Ewa Demianowicz]

In my opinion, it's certainly possible to make this process very easy and less complicated. There's no need for additional burdens. For pilots and people who provide that kind of transportation, there are certainly a lot of documents to fill out for international flights. The idea here is simply to add a declaration to what is probably already part of the process. I would hope that request could be integrated very easily.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

So, if we find a way to amend the wording of the bill without changing its fundamental nature, you'd be okay with that. Is that correct?

[Ewa Demianowicz]

Yes. For us, the important thing is that the ban on this type of transportation has been effective. As to how it will be implemented or made possible afterwards, we're open to various solutions.