Evidence of meeting #13 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for taking the time to speak to us today.
Ms. Mailloux, you have 20 seconds to respond to Ms. Chatel's request.
Ombudsman, Ombudsman of Montreal
The trust instilled by the presence of an ombud in an organization always pays off. It shows a level of self‑examination that not all organizations necessarily possess. It inspires confidence. We don't need a large team to obtain a convincing result for complainants.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Am I wrong in saying that ombuds don't need a large team, but that they need real powers to work effectively?
Is this sentence correct?
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
In 2018, the Trudeau government created an ombud linked to corporate activity abroad. There has been a great deal of discussion about the powers and effectiveness of this office. When it was created, critics said that it could report wrongdoing but that it couldn't take action. It's your power that matters.
I'll refer to one of your responses. You said that you found a systemic issue and that you issued a notice of concern.
Does this notice force the administration to take action, or can the administration do whatever it wants with this notice and simply file it away?
Ombudsman, Ombudsman of Montreal
We work with recommendations when we want to be sure, or almost sure, that our investigations have repercussions. Most ombuds around the world have the power of recommendation, which is non-binding.
In my case, the City of Montreal has a moral duty, in a way, to look at the substance of the ombud's recommendations. The recommendations are followed in the vast majority of cases. When we issue a notice of concern, it is for the common good and to serve the organization.
I'm an ombud, I'm independent, and in some respects I'm there to be critical of some of the things that are done on a daily basis. However, I love the City of Montreal and I want it to work properly every day. That is the spirit in which we issue a notice of concern, so that, in the case of a systemic investigation, for example, our observations will help the organization grow.
To plainly answer your question, recommendation is the way to go when I want the City of Montreal to respond to a particular problem.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
You say that your recommendations are followed, even if they are non-binding and the people concerned are not required to follow them.
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
I imagine that if your recommendations weren't often followed, you would have changed jobs by now. At some point, your job has to serve a purpose.
Ombudsman, Ombudsman of Montreal
Either I would have changed jobs or I would have made my recommendations public, which is a corollary of the power of recommendation. Every year, I report on everything I do, including all the investigations I conduct at the City of Montreal. Then I publish my report, make a public statement and so on. That's my experience, but it can change depending on the environment of each ombud.
When the City of Montreal does not follow or rejects a recommendation from the ombud, it has to defend itself. That may seem negative, but it isn't, because the city may not comply with it for a number of reasons. However, generally speaking, since we are a team that is very familiar with the field and makes reasonable recommendations, we make sure that the recommendations have a good chance of being followed.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
As part of our study on the Pest Management Regulatory Agency, we proposed creating an ombud position so that people could express complaints more directly and easily. Some people in our ridings are concerned about the creation of what Ms. Chatel described earlier as a “new structure”. They tell us that it's not efficient enough and that we shouldn't create another inefficient structure.
What do you say to those people?
Ombudsman, Ombudsman of Montreal
I tell them that, if the basic characteristics of an ombud's office are in place, it will necessarily improve the service provided. The ombud is there, keeping an eye on things.
As my colleague Mr. Barber said a little earlier, we generally act as a last resort. For example, in our office, when someone hasn't given the municipal government a chance to solve the problem, we direct them to the right person. If they come back, we intervene as a last resort and conduct an investigation.
The vast majority of our fellow citizens…. Obviously, it sometimes happens that we reiterate the City of Montreal's position, because the person's complaint was unfounded. People thank us because they understand the mechanism better. Whether we deem a complaint founded or unfounded, both are useful to us. Both nurture the relationship between the public and the organization.
Bloc
Yves Perron Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
I understand that you send 80% of complaints back to the initial process, but the process has to be there.
Since I don't have much time left, I will now turn to the representatives of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. I invite Ms. MacDonald or Ms. Bawden to answer my question.
If I understand correctly, your agency no longer has an office to deal with complaints. If an ombud position were created at your agency, to whom would complaints be directed?
Executive Director, Inspection Support, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
I can speak only to the process that exists right now. We have structures and individuals in place, at both the local level and the national level, to be able to speak to stakeholders' questions and concerns. As well, we have additional internal structures such as our inspector general's office, which does help oversee the quality of our inspector delivery and implementation to help further support our efforts.
Liberal
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I've heard the concerns of consumers, constituents, agricultural producers and processors about the new reality of cloned meat. It seems that the government is quietly changing the definition of “new foods”.
According to documents published by Health Canada and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, the updated new food framework will exclude cloned animals from the definition of “new foods”.
My understanding is that, for example, if I buy smoked pork, I can't know whether the pork I'm buying is traditional pork or cloned pork.
Can the Canadian Food Inspection Agency tell me if this is actually true?
Executive Director, Inspection Support, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
I can speak only to what is under the mandate of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, but I would recommend that the committee speak with Health Canada to respond to the member's question.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Health Canada and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency issued a joint statement indicating that Health Canada accepted the meat, which is fine. However, labelling is the responsibility of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. Since cloned pork, or cloned meat in general, is excluded, it doesn't need to be labelled as a “new food”.
Does that make sense to you? Have you received any complaints to that effect? Right now, it is impossible for consumers to know whether Canadian meat comes from a traditional animal or a cloned animal.
Executive Director, Inspection Support, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
I can speak to the roles and responsibilities. Health Canada does have the requirements for this type of issue, and CFIA is responsible for enforcement and compliance. I would offer that we could provide information in writing on whether any complaints have been received in this matter.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
My next question is for Ms. Mailloux.
If you receive complaints from consumers in Quebec and Canada saying that it is impossible to know whether the meat they eat, the pork they choose, is cloned, traditional or organic, do you think those are valid complaints? Could you work on that kind of complaint?
Ombudsman, Ombudsman of Montreal
Mr. Gourde, I have to say you are taking me completely out of my comfort zone.
Under a potential legislative mandate for the ombud, from what I understand, that seems to me to be a complaint that an ombud with that jurisdiction could look into.
In our office, we sometimes look at complaints where people say that regulations are confusing. For example, they say that the City does one thing but announces something else. Those are the types of complaints we look at.
In fact, there's not much we don't look at, except for the decisions made by elected officials at the City of Montreal.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
You used the word “confusing”.
If a label doesn't tell you if meat comes from a cloned animal, that could be valid.
We could at least negotiate to put product labels back on.
Ombudsman, Ombudsman of Montreal
Please understand that this is not my expertise and that there is no ombud yet for this framework. I don't know the legislative mandate they would potentially be given. That said, if there were an ombud, it would be the kind of thing they could look into.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Mr. Barber, as an ombud, do you want to add anything to Ms. Mailloux's answer?
President, Forum of Canadian Ombudsman
I'll echo what my colleague has said. It is something that an ombudsman would look into, depending on the mandate.
It would get responses from the organizations involved, it would study the regulations and the policies, and it would make a determination as to whether or not there was anything unclear. It would basically help clarify the facts of whose responsibility it is, and if there is potentially a gap in responsibility or a gap in the regulations, that could be something else the ombudsman highlights.
