Subcommittee on the Review of the Anti-terrorism Act Committee on June 13th, 2006

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Louise Hayes]

Honourable members of the subcommittee, I see a quorum.

We can now proceed to the election of a chair. According to the motion adopted by the standing committee on May 29, the chair will be a member of the governing party.

I am ready to accept motions to that effect.

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Madam Clerk, I nominate Gord Brown.

[The Clerk]

It has been moved by Tom Wappel that Gord Brown be elected chair of the subcommittee.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I second that motion.

[The Clerk]

Are there any other motions?

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Clerk]

I declare Gord Brown duly elected chair of the subcommittee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you, Madam Clerk.

I'd like to thank members of the committee for their confidence in me as the chair.

Our next order of business will be to elect a vice-chair. I'll just read the standing order.

I've been advised that it's up to the committee to decide how it wishes to deal with vice-chairs, so we'll entertain a motion or comments.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Do you mean motions concerning how we do it, or who—or if? I think we should do it, and in that regard, I would feel comfortable if we followed what's set out in the document before us.

Having said that, I would nominate Roy Cullen as vice-chair from the official opposition.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Okay. Do we have a seconder?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I second the motion.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

We'll need one more vice-chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

According to this document, one would be from the official opposition and one would be from another party, if this is what we're going to follow. Is that how we're going to proceed?

Mr. Cullen, do you accept that nomination?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Yes, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

All right. Is it agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Mr. Cullen, congratulations.

We'll move along to the other vice-chair. Do we have any nominations?

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I nominate Serge Ménard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

All right. Do we have a seconder?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I second the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

All in favour please signify.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Congratulations.

We're all ready to roll. We'll proceed to routine motions.

Seeing none, let me say we could have a discussion on how we wish to proceed with this review.

I'm sorry. We'll back up the truck.

Mr. Wappel.

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It seems I could move routine motion number 1, “services of analysts from the Library of Parliament”, as written.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

For motion number 2, have we a mover?

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I so move.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

It is moved by Mr. Wappel, seconded by Mr. Cullen that the chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence and to have that evidence printed when a quorum is not present, provided that at least three members are present, including a member of the opposition.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Motion number 3 is moved by Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

The correct way of saying this in French is: “disponibles dans les deux langues officielles”. If we say “dans deux langues officielles”, we're implying that there are more than two official languages, whereas in fact there are really only two.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Sorry, Mr. Ménard. I had to get my earpiece in.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

There's just a difference in the French translation.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I'd like to correct the French version by inserting “les” between the words “dans” and “deux”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

So you're moving that--

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

The expression “dans deux langues officielles” doesn't quite have the same meaning as “dans les deux langues officielles”. If we go with the motion as worded, “dans deux langues officielles” implies that there are more than two official languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Okay, we'll fix that.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Moving along to--

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'll move working meals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

All right. It's moved by Mr. Wappel, seconded by Mr. Norlock, that we're going to have working meals.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Mr. Cullen.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm just wondering, before we get into the next routine motions, whether we shouldn't have a little discussion about what our plan of attack is--are we going to have more witnesses, the timelines, all this kind of stuff.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

That is definitely a discussion we should have. We do have the benefit of a number of members of the committee who served on the last group who do have a lot of knowledge of the witnesses. We have to decide whether we want to recall some of those witnesses. We also should probably have a discussion on whether we wish to travel, or put in for travel, to learn more. That's a discussion we should have.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I guess it's a reasonable working assumption that we'll have a witness or two or three. If we're not going to have any witnesses, we don't need to move number 5. I'm happy to go through the routine proceedings, but I think at some point we need to talk about what our plan of attack is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Do you want to move number 5?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Okay, sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

We can get to that discussion, but I believe we'll find consensus.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Okay, so moved, number 5.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

It is moved by Mr. Cullen that witnesses be given ten minutes for their opening statement; that, at the discretion of the chair, during the questioning of witnesses, there be allocated seven minutes for the first questioner of each party, starting with the opposition parties, and that thereafter five minutes be allocated to each subsequent questioner, continuing with the opposition going first and alternating between government members and opposition members until every member has spoken once.

Do we have a seconder on that? Mr. MacKenzie.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

On witnesses' expenses, it is moved by Mr. Comartin, seconded by Mr. MacKenzie, that if requested, reasonable travel, accommodation, and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses, not exceeding one representative per organization; and that, in exceptional circumstances, payment for more representatives be at the discretion of the chair.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Number 7.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Numbers 7, 8 and 9?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Mr. Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Motion 7 should be amended to read “de son personnel ou de son parti”.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Is the party person a member of Parliament?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

No.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Isn't it one and the same?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Not every Member can be a member of the subcommittee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Right, but the motion is that one staff or a party person....

Do we have a seconder for that?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I'm fine with this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Seconding that is Mr. Norlock.

So it's that unless otherwise ordered, each committee member be allowed to be accompanied by one staff or party person at an in camera meeting.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

What does that mean, “party person”?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

If we say “de son personnel ou de son parti”, that could mean another MP.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Well, any member of Parliament can attend any meeting. It's ex officio.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Right. We're talking about staff.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I would imagine there's a hierarchy of some kind among staff members in all parties and that occasionally, when the committee is examining an important question, a member may ask someone who ranks higher up that a staff member to attend the meeting in his place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Oh, so you're asking, Mr. Ménard, if a staff member could come instead of the member in secret meetings?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

We're talking about the in camera meeting.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Yes. The wording “qu'un membre de son personnel” refers to a staff member. I'd like the words “d'un membre de son personnel” to be followed by ”ou d'un membre du personnel de son parti”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Right. Does anyone have a problem with that?

[A voice]

It's one or the other.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

That's right, either one or the other.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

It's one staff member, according to the motion. All in favour of number 7?

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

We'll move along to number 8. That's in camera meetings transcripts.

Mr. Cullen, seconded by Mr. Norlock, moves that one copy of the transcript of each in camera meeting be kept in the committee clerk's office for consultation by members of the committee.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Number 9 is notice of motions. It is moved by Mr. Cullen, seconded by Mr. MacKenzie, that 48 hours' notice be required for any substantive motion to be considered by the committee, unless the substantive motion relates directly to business then under consideration, and that the notice of motion be filed with the clerk of the committee and distributed to members in both official languages.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

All right. Mr. Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

That is, if it's in both official languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Of course.

Do we have any other motions under routine motions?

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

As Mr. Cullen said earlier, I'd like to have some discussion about where we go. Certainly the members opposite were part of the review.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

One moment, please. At the pleasure of the committee, I suggest that we go in camera for this discussion.

[Proceedings continue in camera]