Bill C-11 Committee on March 12th, 2012

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

—we will then move forward on NDP-5, and there will be no moving of Liberal amendment 6.

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

This has been a real concern for us since it was first put into the old Bill C-32. A number of concerns have been raised about this, particularly the sense that it's creating a two-tiered set of educational rights—that students who leave a classroom are not frisked for their notes or for their reproductions that might be part of the lesson plan, but if they're taking any kind of online development, they will be obliged to destroy reproductions 30 days after the course ends.

The other day it was raised by our colleagues that if they were watching this as a video—not that I think students watch video anymore, but still if we are going back to old VHS tapes and they're watching the feed—what would happen if they made copies and gave it to their friends? Well, education might break out.

It seems to be an unnecessary intrusion into the affairs of the classroom that if materials are being protected under collective licences and the authors are being paid if exceptions to copyright are being made under educational purposes that would exist in a classroom—for example, if students make a copy when they receive their lesson plan and they take a copy from a PDF that's under copyright and they put it in their notes and then they bring it as part of their final work—that they would have to be responsible for finding what's under the exceptions and what isn't and would have to be destroyed. It seems to be an unnecessary overwrite and interference in the potential of digital learning.

What we think, with the importance of digital learning, is that we have incredible opportunities for Canadian educational institutions. We should have good collective licences in place to ensure that the people who are creating the works are being compensated, but this doesn't seem to address any of the basic needs. So we would be opposed to it.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I would like to continue.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

If he would like to continue then I'll get to you afterwards, Mr. Regan.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

That's fine; it's their turn.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

It is not surprising that the government wants to set a deadline for students' use of materials; they set deadlines for everything. Once again, discussions are being shut down this afternoon.

We don't understand the logic behind this provision in the legislation, especially since almost everyone in the student community uses digital materials right now. And now those materials are supposed to be destroyed after 30 days. Gentlemen, this is not the gun registry.

Everyone on this committee is free to have their own political opinion. But one thing is clear. When a number of representatives from universities, colleges and student associations say that this does not make sense, we should perhaps listen to them. We just don't understand why the government is so adamant about having lecture notes, lessons and all other materials destroyed.

Mr. Moore, I just don't understand that.

We hope that they will work with us to improve the bill by removing that provision.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

There's still time, if other NDP members would like to speak to this.

We will now go to Mr. Regan.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Obviously, we had an identical motion. Therefore, I certainly support this motion. I think that, in terms of how students use their course materials, the present provision, as drafted by the government, is an unreasonable one. It says that 30 days after you get your mark, you can't use those materials anymore. In fact, my experience as a student certainly was that you would look back in subsequent years at materials, and they would be useful to you and would be important to have.

I think in terms of the intent of supporting education, the government proposal is going in the wrong direction, and this would resolve that problem.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

Is there any further discussion?

Go ahead, Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Sure.

Just as a quick clarification, nowhere in this legislation does it require that course notes be destroyed, as the member from the NDP said.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Seeing no further discussion on amendment NDP-5, I will ask for a show of hands.

(Amendment negatived)

We'll move on to NDP-6. Again, it is identical to Liberal amendment 7.

Mr. Angus, will you be moving forward with this amendment?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, I will.

Our concern is that it's not just the interference with students. The requirements for educational institutions seem to be overly aggressive. It affects teaching materials such as lesson plans, exams, graphs, images, photos, and quotes. Anything a teacher includes in a lesson could be captured if the authorization for that use is an exception or limitation under the act. It creates impossible practical challenges for teachers, challenges that make it very difficult to make use of the new technologies in the classroom.

We don't think you should have to be an expert on copyright to do your lesson plan. Are teachers supposed to go through their plans and delete these works and not others every year?

We have heard from the Canadian School Boards Association, which clearly expressed the near universal opposition of Canada's provincial education systems to this arbitrary measure and the practical risks they face. A good example of this is if we have a student with perceptual disabilities who's learning online, and the teachers prepare a specific set of lessons for that student. That's an investment that the student in the following years could make use of. Yet under this, those lesson plans would have to be terminated. It seems that we are once again stepping needlessly into the jurisdiction of the classroom.

We believe that we should have a strong system in place so that the creation of the works used in a classroom get remuneration, but simply making them disappear after 30 days is not going to benefit students, teachers, or creators.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

The New Democratic Party still has approximately three minutes.

[Pierre Dionne Labelle, NDP, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Angus is absolutely right to be concerned. Furthermore, it is certainly questionable for the federal government to tell the provinces—responsible for education under the Constitution—what to say to their teachers and what to do with notes in educational institutions. In my opinion, that is an approach that does not respect the powers delegated to the provinces to deal with that.

In addition, let me reiterate our deeply held conviction that the committee should respect the concerns of the education community across the country in terms of a new obligation to monitor all teachers and students. Mr. Calandra himself described those measures as completely unrealistic during the testimony. So it is our hope that the government will accept this simple technical amendment, whose purpose is to remove the obligation for educational institutions to destroy documents after an arbitrary 30-day period.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Dionne Labelle.

Is there any further discussion on amendment NDP-6?

Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I would just make a clarification, again, that there is no requirement under this bill to destroy all of their material after 30 days.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you.

There is still plenty of time for the Conservatives to speak if they so choose in relation to this amendment.

Is there any further discussion?

Mr. Regan, I can talk for another 30 seconds while you chew if you'd like.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

That's very kind of you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

There you go. Now with that, I'll gladly hand the floor over to you for five minutes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

We find sustenance when we can, around here.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

You've got it.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Chairman, obviously this is another motion that I will be supporting, as we have the exact same motion, and for the reasons that have already been elucidated.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, NDP, Glenn Thibeault]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

Is there any further discussion?

Seeing none on this, I'll ask for a show of hands.

All those in favour of NDP-6, please raise your hands.

All those opposed.

(Amendment negatived)

Seeing no further amendments to clause 27 and none of the amendments were accepted, I will now go back to clause 27.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We have another amendment.