Evidence of meeting #5 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Canadian Independent Music Association
No, I did not mean to suggest that we will collapse as an industry. What I was suggesting is that $22 million is a significant amount of money for my industry. And $20,000 for one of my labels is a significant amount of money. It could mean the difference between signing a Canadian act and not signing a Canadian act—$20,000. So $22 million is a significant revenue stream for our members, who will indeed feel the loss if it does go.
FACTOR, as an example, contributes—
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Thank you, Mr. Johnston. I'm sorry, I can't let you finish. We are so close for time. Thank you.
Mr. Dionne Labelle.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for being here today.
I would like to ask Mr. Johnston a quick question.
Could you please tell me about the members you represent? What is their economic situation? What is their reality? What impact would this loss of $20 million have on your members? Could you please say more about this?
President, Canadian Independent Music Association
I can illustrate in broad terms, and maybe Bob can add a little bit more.
The majority of my members are struggling; they are definitely within the definition of “small businesses”. They make annual revenues of $200,000, $100,000 in some cases. Some might make $500,000, and a few might be over $1 million, very few.
I was going to say that FACTOR contributed last year $16 million to the industry, public-private partnerships through FACTOR. That $16 million was a significant investment and it was much needed. To remove $22 million in an era when our revenues are dramatically shrinking would be a significant loss. We used to have a revenue stream that was $28 million. It's now $8 million and in a few years it'll be zero. It is changing the face of the industry.
Digitally, our partners in iTunes and streaming services are paying cents where the revenue stream used to be dollars. So our small businesses are trying to stretch that penny into a dollar as often as they can. They're good at it but they can only do it for so long. They are struggling as an industry, but they are doing relatively well given the challenges they're facing.
Secretary, Board of Directors, Canadian Independent Music Association
I think the main thing to understand is that the music industry is a combination of different revenue streams—it doesn't rely on only one. There is SOCAN, there is AVLA, and there are all these different revenue streams that come in. So we rely on the accumulation of revenues to make a living.
We're already losing the blank-tape levy. People keep talking about CDs. CDs are going the way of the dinosaur, let's face it. We keep talking about CDs, but that's yesterday's news. People just aren't bothering to press CDs as much as they used to.
The point is that every penny counts in the music industry. It's a business of pennies, and every penny counts.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Yesterday, we heard from the owner of a small radio station. He said that if he bought the licence for a work once, he could keep it indefinitely. Does that situation have any repercussions on you?
We also heard about a practice that is common in radio stations: before the licence expires, the songs are copied again to avoid paying for the licence a second time. Are you aware of that practice? Does that type of thing harm your members?
President, Canadian Independent Music Association
We are aware of that practice, and that's why we have the amendments before you. We recognize that the broadcasters need a certain window to convert the music into a broadcast format, a 30-day window, and that's perfectly fine. It's part of the business. What we are concerned about is the potential for that 30-day window to be ad infinitum. We are concerned that it will continue to roll over copies of copies of copies. That's really circumventing the principle of the royalty associated with that practice.
We will encourage that 30-day window as long as it means 30 days. That's why we have the amendment before you that we do.
NDP
Pierre Dionne Labelle NDP Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Seline, could you please explain to me what you would like the bill to contain regarding retail rights? How would that benefit your members?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
Do you mind if I answer in English?
The resale right is great for people who have a secondary market. Artists who've reached a certain level in their practice whereby their prices are higher have built their market. There are also aboriginal artists who might sell to buyers in the north at a very low price, and then the work is taken to some market in Germany where people pay crazy prices for things. The artists in Canada don't benefit from that kind of activity.
Take the auction sales, for example. A lot of the artists whose works were sold in November are senior artists: Daphne Odjig, Joe Fafard, Michael Snow. These are artists whose markets have increased dramatically. In the auction market those works go for a lot of money, and the artists need to benefit from that.
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Thank you, Ms. Seline and Monsieur Dionne Labelle.
Now we're going to Mr. Lake for five minutes.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I'm going to focus my comments and questions on CIMA and CARCC, if I could. You both seem to suggest in your opening statements and throughout your testimony that you don't want to have to rely on litigation of any kind. I would argue that the only way to create a world like that is to have completely one-sided legislation. That would be nice, I guess, as long as you're on that one side of the legislation.
For example, with fair dealing for education, Ms. Seline, we've had students' groups, public schools, universities, colleges, school boards, and many other people come before us and say they need this, this is critically important, it's very important to balance the law. Why should we simply ignore the rights of those organizations and not have fair dealing for education? Why should you never have to litigate anything at the expense of what all these organizations would suggest is balanced?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
There's plenty of litigation around, it's just that I don't want to have to deal with fair-dealing litigation if I don't have to.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Right. Lots of people don't like to have to deal with things, but we do because—
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
We do deal with it, but—
Conservative
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
—it's just that will make our life so much more difficult.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Right, it's tough. But you mentioned in here that you would have to contest every fair-dealing claim. I would argue that you don't have to contest every fair-dealing claim because most of them would be fair. The ones that aren't fair you would contest and presumably would win.
You also talk about how confusing it is. You talk about years of unnecessary and expensive litigation to clarify a fair-dealing exception for education. I would argue that the law is pretty clear on fair dealing. There are pretty clear categories. There's a pretty clear definition of fair dealing as defined by the Supreme Court. You're arguing otherwise. I'm confused by that. It seems pretty clear when I read it. What's unclear about it?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
You have to go through the six-step test and—
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
There are six factors. Which of the six factors are unclear?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
It's not that they're unclear, it's that you have to argue them. Cases are complicated.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Yes, they are, but that doesn't mean that's not the right process. Due process is important in this country.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
But why go there in the first place? Education is dealt with effectively in the law already.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Some would say it's not, and we go there to try to create balance in the law. I think that's what this is about.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
I do not want to deal with museums that say they don't have to pay us because they're so-called educators. Up to now, they have not been classified as such.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
But again, the six factors to consider are pretty clear. One of the factors is very clear. Will copying the work affect the market of the original work? I'm not sure what's unclear about that.