Evidence of meeting #10 for Bill C-2 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Reid  Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
J. Leadbeater  Deputy Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

On the issue that I raised earlier on non-partisan spirit, many of your comments in this report directly refer to our Prime Minister and refer to Conservative versus Liberal policy. In the appendix to your report, appendix B, I believe, there's the Conservative Party of Canada election platform. Why did you feel it was necessary to have the Conservative election platform in your report?

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Do we have unanimous consent for the answer here? We do, thank you.

Commissioner Reid, go ahead, please.

10 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

John Reid

Mr. Chairman, I put that in because I wished to put in all of the evidence showing that the questions raised in the open government act had been vetted by a large number of organizations. They had been vetted by the parliamentary committee, they had been vetted by the Conservative Party, and they had been vetted by Judge Gomery, and that was to be the policy of the government. I wanted to make sure that everybody understood that these proposals really were not for debate any more, but that there had been a consensus reached on them, and that we anticipated that would be the way in which the government would proceed. So to make sure that everybody had the facts in hand, I did use the material.

You should know that in previous reports, the honourable member there has criticized me for having referred to a former prime minister who had made comments about doing things in access to information, and I had reported that as well.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr. Martin, go ahead, please.

10 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Reid, you're on record as saying the following: “in one way or another, all the checks and balances designed to limit abuses of government power are dependent upon there being access by outsiders to governments’ insider information”, and you go on to say, “a government, and a public service, which holds tight to a culture of secrecy is a government and public service ripe for abuse”. I got that from a speech you gave somewhere, Mr. Reid. I couldn't agree with you more in the way you've stated that. I honestly think people don't realize what a powerful tool and a powerful gift they have in our “right to know” policies in this country. If they knew they would fight for them more aggressively, I honestly believe.

I heard one person say, imagine if we had 30 million auditors instead of just one overworked Auditor General. The amount of waste and corruption.... I'm not implying that there's that much corruption, but imagine how much better government would be. As Oliver Wendell Holmes said, you can't legislate morality, but I think this bill and the recommendations you've made are making the argument that by allowing public scrutiny and by shining the light of day on the operations of government, we can encourage certain types of behaviour and discourage the stuff that we're trying to avoid. In the few minutes I have, I have to say it's a shameful lost opportunity that we're not dealing with meaningful access to information reform in the context of Bill C-2.

Actually, in the House of Commons I told the President of the Treasury Board that I would gladly trade him all this other stuff in Bill C-2 if he would give us the access to information reform that was promised to us in the election campaign, and I would make that offer today too, even though I think the lobbyist stuff is important and the appointments process is important--although due to a snit, the Prime Minister seems to have chucked that portion. Everything else pales in comparison to meaningful access to information reform--the public's right to know. There are very few government insiders that are really fans of the public's right to know, and I think this government and the last government, notwithstanding what Mr. Owen had to say, underestimated the push back from powerful Ottawa mandarins, from the PCO, and from I don't know who. The enemies of the right to know are legion, and they're well armed and they're well connected, because every time we get close, they undermine, and they thwart what we're going to do. Even direct promises from prime ministers are undermined by somebody who seemingly.... Those people who have a vested interest in operating in secrecy seem to win every single time.

I probably don't have any time left, but perhaps you'd care to comment, Mr. Reid. I should give some time to our witnesses to speak.

10:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

John Reid

I just want to comment that when I started on this odyssey for reform, I knew it would be difficult. I was one of the originals who participated in the drafting of the original legislation back in the late seventies and early eighties, and I knew how difficult it was then to get the legislation through. So when I set out to try to get useful reform to it, I recognized that it would not be an easy proposition. It has not been. But I'm hopeful that the committee will look at the amendments that we have suggested to reform the access to information sections of this act. I think if you do that, you will strengthen the act; you'll provide more openness to those groups coming in for the first time; you'll be able to find an analogous situation for every one of those, that's already under the act, so that there's really no problem in terms of amending the act in an intelligent, sensible way.

I'm prepared to take my chances in the other committee because that's been a decision made by the government. I think we should proceed on that route. But I would like to see those amendments that I have suggested incorporated into Bill C-2.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

If I have one second left, Mr. Chairman, may I have a very quick yes or no?

With reference to the public interest override clause recommended in the open government act, what other jurisdictions enjoy...where did you draw from, for that particular issue, in other jurisdictions?

10:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

John Reid

I'll ask Mr. Leadbeater to respond.

10:05 a.m.

Deputy Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

J. Leadbeater

Some of the exemptions in the current act have it, and all jurisdictions in Canada have public interest override provisions. The American Freedom of Information Act has public interest override provisions. It is fairly common in modern access-to-information legislation.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Mr. Lukiwski.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just for a moment I'm going to go around the circle. I've got a couple of things woven into this one question, but I'll start by going back to what is considered by your office to be a non-leak of the information contained in your special report.

Let me make sure I understand completely, Mr. Reid: you're saying it was not a leak, that no one in your office leaked the information.

10:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

John Reid

That's correct.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

That's correct?

10:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

John Reid

If anybody is to blame, I am, because I'm the one who put the material out that I would be releasing the material on the LISTSERV.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

So neither you nor Mr. Leadbeater nor anybody actually leaked the information and gave the information to the Ottawa Sun about what was going to be contained in this report. Is that your contention?

10:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

10:05 a.m.

Deputy Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

J. Leadbeater

Mr. Chairman, the commissioner's answer is correct. Journalists were informed that a special report would be released. Journalists, of course, asked us what was in it. We said that if they wanted to know what was in it, they should take a look at what we'd said. If they took a look at what we said in the open government act, they'd have a very good idea of what we were going to say.

I think stories were written as a result, but no copy or portion of the special report was released by anyone from our office prior to its tabling in Parliament.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

And there were no direct quotes from whether or not--

10:05 a.m.

Deputy Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

J. Leadbeater

There were no direct quotes from the report.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

The reason I'm starting with that...and I'm going to now weave back into the discussion we had just a few moments ago about journalists revealing sources. You suggested that with respect to the CBC, as an example, it would be entirely appropriate for your office to be able to examine the source of a story to determine whether there would be any injury based on releasing the source, and that you feel the CBC would be willing to comply with that.

10:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

John Reid

The RCMP complies with it. The national security establishment complies with it.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Would it then be your contention...? Would this only apply to governments, crown corporations, media outlets, or would it apply to private institutions as well?

10:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

John Reid

The Access to Information Act only applies to government. It would not apply to the private sector at all.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

So the Ottawa Sun would not be obligated to release any information on whether there was a leak.