Evidence of meeting #24 for Bill C-2 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Mr. Martin, we now move to page 119.3, which is amendment NDP-9.2.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Mr. Chairman, I'll move NDP-9.2 dealing with the definition of government institution. I'd ask my colleagues, especially the opposition parties, to think long and hard before they vote these down out of hand. Punishing me in some way isn't nearly as important as improving the access to information regime that Canada has to operate under.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Mr. Martin, I know it's tempting to get into this again, but try to stick to the amendment, please.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Well, I will try to stick to the issues rather than personalize, but you can't overstate how important freedom of information is to a functioning democracy. The Supreme Court of Canada calls access to information laws “quasi-constitutional”. We're now finally getting through what I believe is the chaff of this bill and getting to the wheat, to the kernels.
I've made the point before that many of the other clauses of this bill pale in comparison to the benefit to Canadians that amending the access to information provisions will bring. I've said before, freedom of information is the oxygen that democracy breathes. You can't overstate how important it is. It's a fundamental pillar of democracy. One of the reasons I wanted to change the name of the Access to Information Act in a subamendment that I'm sure my colleagues are now conspiring to defeat is that we wanted Canadians to view access to information as a right, the right to know--
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I believe the chair, in his wisdom, some time earlier in the sitting admonished all members sitting around this table not to personalize, not to impute motives on the votes that members had taken and the way in which they did, and I would simply ask the chair to remind the member who is speaking at this point of that ruling.
Thank you.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Ms. Jennings is in order.
Mr. Martin, the chairman is getting impatient.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, I'm not prepared to sit here and let these people undermine the most significant changes to Bill C-2, or sabotage them in some way, because they're hostile.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
11:40 a.m.
NDP
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
The definition of government institution is critically important. It's vital. If we're going to expand those institutions that operate in the shadows currently, if we're going to shine the light of day on government institutions, there's a necessary amendment we have to make to alter the definition of what we consider a government institution. The language we've put forward expands that greatly to include parent crowns, as if there's any doubt.
You will notice the previous government rationed which government institutions shall and shall not be covered by access to information. In other words, there was no freedom of information. The right to know was not acknowledged anywhere but in flowery speeches by the former Minister of Justice.
We're talking about the right to know what goes on within the confines of these crown corporations and institutions and agencies. Currently, 46 out of 249 government crown corporations, institutions and agencies are subject to the access to information laws. I can find out what goes on in the Atlantic Pilotage Authority, but I can't find out what goes on in massive crown corporations or foundations or agencies that deal with billions and billions of dollars outside the scrutiny of the public. Imagine if we had 30 million auditors instead of one Auditor General; imagine what we could unearth in terms of maladministration or waste, or simply being able to justify to the public how their public dollars are being spent in these institutions. The Liberals created an environment of distrust and fear--
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
--but I might just comment that his speech may be directed at people who aren't opposed to this particular amendment, and it seems to be anticipating something that has not been shown by anybody's comment to suggest there's opposition to this. It's a good speech and I agree with what you're saying, except for the epithets about the former government.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
No, I simply wish to be on the list for debate of this amendment.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Okay.
Mr. Martin, I know you're impassioned on this subject. You and I have sat on another committee, and I'm quite aware how impassioned you are; there's no question about that. I just again ask that you refrain from—I'm going to use the word “baiting”, and I've used it several times—other members of the committee.
Mr. Martin, you still have the floor.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It's impossible to address passage of this particular clause without addressing the politics associated with undermining this particular clause. I have reason to believe, and I've been told, that the other opposition parties are conspiring to oppose every amendment on access to information. It's out of protest because they're not getting the entire John Reid package before this committee.
If that is true, and if I yield the floor and allow you to put it to a vote, and these people exercise their vote to undermine and to sabotage the improvements that we do have in front of us for Bill C-2, we'll be doing a disservice to everyone who relies on access to information for—
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Mr. Martin, I think you're anticipating what members are going to do in this committee, and they may or may not do it.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Well, I want to make the points in favour of this amendment prior to handing it over to the floor and subjecting it to the vagaries of whatever political mischief may be afoot.