Evidence of meeting #27 for Bill C-2 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Oh, I made a mistake. I shouldn't have done that, folks. Oh well, we passed it, so too bad.
We're going to move to the schedule. Ladies and gentlemen, there's an amendment on the schedule, which is government amendment G-62 on page 199.
Mr. Poilievre.
Conservative
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice
The government amendment G-62 is making technical changes to the list of aboriginal self-governments that are listed in that schedule. There were various technical mistakes in reflecting the names of those governments, and this schedule is simply correcting that. It neither adds nor deletes from it.
Liberal
Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you, Mr. Wild. Is the amended schedule now complete with respect to those first nations that have self-government agreements?
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice
The schedule reflects all first nations with self-government agreements that have been ratified by an act of Parliament.
Conservative
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
We do have a motion dealing with this idea that the Auditor General should be able to assess the books of first nations. We don't agree at all that the role of the Auditor General should be expanded to involve first nations. We feel it doesn't take into consideration the unique relationship between first nations and the government. This implies, or it has its origins in the idea, that first nations are spending the government's money and that we then should have some direction, control, oversight, and scrutiny of how they spend it. That's not true. Once the contribution agreement or the transfer of money takes place, that money is theirs to do with as they see fit. You could call it payment for who knows what, but the idea that the Auditor General should be able to follow the money is absolutely true for any government-funded agency, institution, etc.
You don't have the Auditor General auditing the Government of Mali, for instance. When we have overseas development aid delivered to Mali, that money is delivered to the government there, or to the delivery agency, I suppose. Perhaps if it is CIDA doing the work, there would be some oversight, so maybe that's not the best analogy.
But I strongly object to having first nations listed in any capacity as being within or outside of the oversight of the Auditor General. We shouldn't be raising that question at all.
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Help me, Mr. Wild. The schedule refers to section 42. Is that 42 of Bill C-2 or 42 of the Auditor General Act, or what the--?
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice
It's section 42 of the Financial Administration Act—
Liberal
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice
—which is being amended in Bill C-2. You will find it on page 193, and it's clause 315 of Bill C-2. That clause sets out a discretionary authority for the Governor in Council to make regulations with respect to a host of items. The schedule comes in play on page 194, under the definition of “recipient”, where we state that it:
does not include
[...]
(c) the government of a foreign state, a provincial government, a municipality or an aboriginal body named in Schedule VII, or any of their agencies;
Liberal
Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB
Other first nations. Then we'll get back to that today when we get to clause 315 of this bill. Is that it?
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice
Yes.
Liberal
Stephen Owen Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
I have a question for Mr. Wild, if I could.
We have a couple of amendments coming up with respect to the application of the act.... Actually, I've answered my own question. Thank you.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
This is for a technical expert. I'd like to know if supporting amendment G-62 would have any impact should this committee adopt the amendment removing the clause in Bill C-2 that gives the Auditor General the authority to audit first nations?
The Auditor General herself said that she does not wish to have that authority; that should the committee in its wisdom decide to force that authority on her, she will never use it, in most likelihood; and that she was supportive of the first nations developing their own auditor general system, and she's been working with them to achieve that goal.
So let's say we adopt G-62. Then should we adopt the amendment—which concerns clause 315, which gives the Auditor General the authority to go in and audit first nations governments—that removes this authority from the Auditor General, does that have any incidence on the fact that some of these first nations have self-government agreements that have been ratified by government? Does that have any legal incidence?
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Treasury Board Portfolio, Department of Justice
It could. I don't know, Mr. Chairman, it may not actually be a bad idea for us to take a couple of minutes to discuss with the legislative clerks the interactions that are happening here.
The only thing I would point out is that if the schedule is approved by the committee and then there were an amendment that would attempt to remove the reference from the schedule and the definition of “recipient”, I suspect we'd have a bit of a problem.
