Madam Chair, do I have some more time? Thanks.
What I'm trying to get at is that if we're going to say that we have circumvented the requirements because we're not making a major constitutional change with regard to that...although some people would argue that there is a fundamental change. The way the Senate will be elected and the way the Senate will work is changing the fundamental characteristics of the Senate.
But I want to ask this question. The words “democracy” and “democratic” have occurred very often in the minister's speeches—on this issue, anyway—and I think we have to think of the principle of being democratic. You cannot leave out the provinces if you're going to be democratic. This is a fundamental change to the federation and to the way that institutions of Parliament are going to be able to function. We need to ask the people, and we need to ask the provinces. This may not be constitutionally needed if you want to circumvent it, but you cannot do things and change fundamental things by stealth. You have to do it in an open and democratic manner if you truly mean that. You can't do it without the provinces. The provinces should be consulted, should come onside, should decide whether they even want to go down this road. The people should decide whether they want to go down this road.
So what I am saying is that if you're going to be democratic, let's be democratic in the sense of what government can and cannot do—and should and should not do—in a democratic manner.