Bill C-20 (39th Parliament, 2nd Session) Committee on April 9th, 2008

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

At least three years; I see. When your system is in place and is running smoothly, a federal or provincial election will have to be called in order to activate it, is that correct?

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes, no pilot project is possible in this case. So, there is no risk of error; that risk must be kept to a minimum.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Certainly, with new technologies, harmonization may be possible. In the coming years, do you foresee any potential complications or errors, given that it is a new system? Do you have a reference with other countries who use exactly the same process?

[Marc Mayrand]

There are always differences, and the Canadian system will have to reflect that. That is why a timeline is important and the testing of these new systems is critical to ensure the success of a consultation.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Can you tell me which countries have a similar system?

[Marc Mayrand]

Scotland uses the single transferable vote system. Australia, which probably has the best known system, and one that applies nationally, to the Senate, as well as at the State level, has had quite a lot of experience with it. There may also be Belgium, but I don't want to mislead you. The two main systems are Australia and the Australian States, and Scotland, which only implemented it in the last election.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Have you had any discussions with the people responsible for running it?

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes, we sent IT experts over there to have a look at their system. Also, I hosted my counterpart from Australia last fall. We try to find opportunities such as that in order to learn from each other with respect to the kinds of challenges we're facing.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

[Marc Mayrand]

Madam Chair, with your permission, I would just like to clarify an answer I gave Mr. Paquette earlier. I most certainly misled him when I stated earlier that the broadcast rules would apply. I am told that they do not apply. So, in terms of debates or air time, the rules set out in the Elections Act do not cover Senate appointment consultations. As a result, nominees do not free or paid air time. I just wanted to be sure I had not given you incorrect information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Albina Guarnieri]

Thank you.

Mr. Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to be clear that senators represent a certain Senate district. In future consultations, will those districts be considered when a senator is re-elected, or will they become completely obsolete?

[Marc Mayrand]

Only in Quebec do there seem to be Senate districts. In all the other provinces, they do not exist. Candidates run for the province as a whole. And, from what I understood of the bill, even in Quebec, the election or consultation to appoint senators will be province-wide. Under the Constitution, senators are appointed to represent districts but, for the purposes of the consultation, it would be a province-wide vote.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I see.

Reference has been made to electronic vote counting. Have there already been attempts to do that in Quebec? At the municipal level, it turned out to be a complete fiasco. Are there any provisions in the bill that would help us to avoid a similar nightmare in future?

[Marc Mayrand]

You can rest assured that we will do whatever is necessary to prevent things from going off the rails. That is precisely the reason why I am insisting on more time to implement these systems. The technologies obviously exist; we don't have to re-invent the wheel. But these technologies are not currently being used in Canada for election purposes. One of the problems we have to resolve relates to the fact that there are few Canadian suppliers, given that no one is using that system in Canada. We will have to call for proposals from foreign firms in order to develop this system.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I believe that Canadian companies did attempt to do this in the past, but found there was no market for it. However, if there is a call for tenders, you may well be able to find Canadian firms.

The electronic aspect of this is one of the factors you referred to. What are the other factors that could delay implementation of a consultation process?

[Marc Mayrand]

Are you referring to the STV system? Other than the technology, there will be a need to train staff, develop information programs, deliver information programs to staff, and develop public awareness programs that will be required to inform the voters. All of that represents a considerable effort. Once again, that is in addition to all of the other efforts that are normally required for by-elections or general elections, and possibly for the transitional selection method provided for in the bill.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

When you talk about informing the voters, do you believe it could take more than a year to explain to voters that, as part of the process…

[Marc Mayrand]

I do not think, either that it will take a year, or that we could retain the attention of the voters for such a long period of time, but I do think there has to be a solid public information and awareness campaign aimed at the voters, because there is likely to be some confusion at the beginning. This is completely new: in Canada, people have never before exercised their right to vote in this way. All of a sudden, there are two ballots. One is filled in differently from the other, and the result is calculated differently as well. All of that has to be explained to the voters, and it has to be clear so that there is no confusion when the votes are counted.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Earlier, you were saying that there could be some problems in the provinces in terms of organizing these consultations.

Because the voting process is organized with Elections Canada alone, normally every four years, if there were vacant Senate positions to be filled in one province and a provincial election were to be called, would it be possible to work with Elections Quebec, for example…

[Marc Mayrand]

Throughout my presentation, I tried to suggest possible solutions. One of the solutions I suggested in my presentation involved the possibility of delegating the selection process or appointment consultations process to the provinces. Indeed, Alberta already has experience with it. Alberta has its own system for selecting senators. The names are passed on to the Prime Minister. That might be a better model, rather than having a mixed system—in other words, holding both federal and provincial elections on the same day. That raises all kind of issues, some of which are yet to be resolved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Albina Guarnieri]

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I think many Canadians have wondered how to fix the Senate. If we go back to John A. MacDonald, when the Senate was first founded on patronage and cronyism, he explained that it was there to protect the rights of minorities. Of course, his definition of minority is somewhat different from that of the poor tourist pages who stand outside the Senate explaining the protection of minorities today. John A. MacDonald said we need to protect the rights of minorities because there will always be more poor people than rich people. So the Senate was there to protect the interests of rich people.

That attitude was perhaps typical 141 years ago. Now, 141 years later, we're being asked to fix it with a “dealer's choice”, whereby we're going to trust that the Prime Minister will pick from the list and will pick the electoral choice, but he's not bound by it.

We're trusting that we'll spend $100 million to $150 million on a process to be ready, if he decides to call. He might decide not to call any, or he might decide prior to the election to fill a whole bunch of vacancies with political friends and then hold a few safe ridings or regions where he thinks he can win. And yet, as Elections Canada, you have to be prepared for this.

You're dealing with very loosey-goosey financing rules. In your experience, do you think it would have been simpler just to say that this will be for the election of senators, period, and that it will be based on a system of voting such as we have for members of Parliament? Would that not be a lot simpler for your work and maybe cost a little less money?

[Marc Mayrand]

In a sense, it's a policy choice, and there has to be consideration of the limitations that are set out by the Constitution. I'm not sure I can comment further on this aspect; I think it's a matter for discussion among parliamentarians. We will simply undertake the task of administering the regime that Parliament wishes to adopt for appointment of senators.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I was also quite surprised, and you mentioned them, by the political financing rules—you referred to the gaps. It seems to me that in 2008, the one thing anybody in any political party would know is that if you play fast and loose with political financing rules and don't have really clear, laid-out rules, someone's going to break those rules. Allowing that is the fast track to political hell, and yet we have a situation where there are no limits on spending and parties can supply goods and services—perhaps phone banks. Would that be something they could help...?