On the question around the ways and means, this is not an introduction of a tax; this is removal of an incentive.
I well hear Mr. Jean's points, and I've often heard him talk about the desperate situation in terms of infrastructure in his community. I very much appreciate that there was hardship brought on by previous Liberal governments in the national energy program.
The specific thing this speaks to, which I didn't hear in his comments--and certainly that's fine--is trying to equate a national energy program with the removal of a subsidy to give incentive to an industry at its very beginning stages. Now that the industry is well on its way and doing very well, to consider that you need to give incentive to that doesn't make any sense.
In addressing this bill, the chair raised two questions of admissibility. One of them, in terms of a ways and means motion, is not an increase in taxation at all; it's the removal of a subsidy.
In terms of the relevance of the bill, he applauds the government's action to seek to remove this. So in principle he believes, and more importantly his government believes, that this should no longer be there.
This motion we brought forward calls into question the timing and the length of time. The phase-out proposed by the current government doesn't even begin until 2011, and then it follows some years after that. If we believe in the principle and we know it's right, then it's just a basic question of fairness. That's why we brought the motion forward. We have an enormous number of projects being announced right now. No one has ever said on scale or size...of course, oil sands projects are large, and there isn't a small one out there.
I ask that you look across the spectrum at where energy industries are right now. While Alberta and Canada realized there may have been a need in 1996 for an incentive, no sensible person would say there's a need for an incentive for this industry right now.
Why would you give an incentive to an industry that's doing fine on its own? That's not the role of government. That stems from something else, where you start to pick and choose favourites. There's no need for it. There's no rational economic need for it, and there's certainly no environmental need for it.
If the projections go from the current output to upwards of five million barrels a day, which is what industry has on the books, and it is moving quite quickly to this, our concern is how government can credibly and seriously enter into negotiations at the international level about restricting greenhouse gas emissions, and at the same time have an incentive on its books to do more of what all within and outside industry say is one of the most energy intensive and greenhouse gas emitting forms of production. They're counterintuitive points.
All we're pushing forward in this motion is, and I'm waiting for other committee members to suggest that it's not correct.... But why are you giving incentive to an industry that's doing so well? You did it in the past. It was done. To continue on for eight more years is not tax fairness. It absolutely undermines the work of the Minister of the Environment and others when they go on the international scene and suggest that Canada is serious about getting control of greenhouse gas emissions. In effect, we're saying please do more; please do as much as you possibly can before this 2011 phase-out period that will last until 2015 at a minimum.