Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) Committee on Feb. 8th, 2007

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Can you answer the question? Just tell us yes or no.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

In your world it is probably not yes or no; it is probably up or down, and greenhouse gas emissions went up, not down.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You are on camera, Minister. Canadians are watching. They want an answer. This is serious business. This is not buffoonery. How much money have you spent?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We have spent money across five departments, and it will be significantly more than was spent by the previous government. We're going to get better results. That's not a good result. It's not how much you spend. If you could spend your way out of this problem, I suspect the Liberals would have done that.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Is that like your transit tax credit, Minister, that you were told by finance officials and environment officials not to announce because it was not efficient on a per dollar basis for greenhouse gas reductions?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think getting people out of their cars and onto public transit is important. I was so excited as a member of the Ontario legislature to see every member of Dalton McGuinty's cabinet get up in the provincial legislature and support a transit pass credit. Every single member of the Ontario legislature supported it, and people took that great idea from Ontario that Dalton McGuinty supported. I'm taking it to Ottawa.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You can't answer the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Time is up.

Mr. Bigras, you have five minutes.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, as the Climate Change Conference was being held in Montreal, the Montreal Stock Exchange signed an agreement with the Chicago Climate Exchange, which has a subsidiary in Europe, in order to establish the Montreal Climate Exchange as quickly as possible.

On January 25, 2007, the Premier of Quebec expressly asked that a carbon exchange be established. At the time, he was at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Furthermore, Luc Bertrand at the Montreal Climate Exchange has indicated he would like to see regulatory authorization for establishing the exchange put in place as quickly as possible.

Here is my question. When do you plan to implement the regulations needed to establish a carbon exchange and climate exchange in Canada?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We're currently looking at various compliance options for the industrial sector. The domestic carbon market is certainly one of the suggestions that some in Canada have made.

I do find it a bit odd in one respect, Mr. Bigras, that you want to have a territorial approach and in another respect you want the rest of Canada to come to Montreal and trade carbon. You can't have it both ways. If you want Quebec to be an island by itself, Canadians from the other nine provinces and three territories aren't going to bring all their money to Montreal for an exchange. You can't have it both ways.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Chairman, this shows a lack of knowledge of how the European Union functions today. In 1997, the EU agreed on an 8% reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. Greenhouse gas reduction targets were divided up by territory, basically a process similar to that used by the EU but different on the basis of territory, and established the carbon exchange.

Minister, can you please explain why there's a contradiction between territorial distribution and a carbon exchange? Perhaps I failed to understand the problem. However, I would remind you that Mr. Villeneuve told us it was clear that regional measures are much more useful, since energy policy is decided by the provinces and provinces can establish exchanges and assist one another.

Is that not what you are contradicting?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

My point was that you wanted a territorial approach, which would be completely against what they're doing in the European Union. You wanted the entire national plan to be territorial so that Quebec could be on an island of its own. Now you want all the money from Ontario and the other provinces to come to Montreal.

I will tell you that when it comes to compliance mechanisms, domestic carbon trading for the private sector is something we're open to and looking at. A number of colleagues have pushed me on the idea of the Montreal exchange, as have Toronto and other areas. It's something we'll be coming forward on in short order when we release our industrial targets.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

In light of the circumstances, do you think that the Toronto proposal is more valid than the Montreal proposal? Is that what you are telling us? Are you saying that since Quebec is suggesting a territorial approach, and since Quebec is asking for $328 million, it would be preferable to set up the exchange in Toronto?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I didn't say it would be better to have it in Toronto. In fact, I haven't been briefed on Toronto. I have been lobbied on Quebec's suggestion of Montreal. You've been one of many who have done that.

The minister of the environment in Quebec called me after my nomination and asked if I would have an open mind to considering ideas that had been ruled out in the past, and my answer was yes. I then met with him and heard about some of the exciting initiatives that Quebec is undertaking. I also met with my colleague from Ontario and heard about some of the exciting initiatives that Ontario is looking at. I've kept an open mind on that, and I'll take your concerns back to the table to discuss with my colleagues.

I think there are certainly a lot of arguments that can be made for the domestic carbon market, and when we come forward with those industrial targets in the weeks ahead, in a month or two ahead, we will talk about compliance mechanisms. But right now we don't have regulations, so on the compliance mechanism, we'd be a bit ahead of ourselves.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Since you became the Minister of the Environment in early January, what concrete steps have you taken to set up this carbon exchange in Canada? What concrete steps have you taken? Have you met with the Montreal Climate Exchange? Have you met with international stakeholders to assess the merit of a carbon exchange in Canada? What concrete steps have you taken as minister since the beginning of January to establish this carbon exchange?

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Give a short answer, please, Minister.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We've been working every day, every night, every weekend on our industrial plan and the compliance mechanisms, one of which is the domestic carbon market. We're going to do our homework, we're going to consider the competing options, and we'll come forward in very short order with a particular proposal. I take my responsibility seriously. I think Canadians would expect that any new minister take a short but reasonable period of time to be briefed on the issues.

I think there are many advantages to it. But when you look at one compliance mechanism, you have to look at it compared to others. Would you use a science and technology approach? Would you use a research and development fund? We're not interested in a carbon tax, but what other compliance mechanisms would you use? We'd consider this in that context.

Certainly there are some benefits to it. I think when we come forward with the targets, part of industry's capacity to meet those targets will be related to what the compliance mechanisms are, and obviously the domestic carbon market is a significant proposal towards that end.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Thank you, Minister.

The chair will recognize Mr. Bevington as a substitute member for the NDP.

Mr. Bevington, you have five minutes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Baird, for joining us here today.

I have an interest in arguing a little bit about energy. We've all identified that the use of energy here is the key element in moving forward in meeting our Kyoto commitments. Many of the graphs that are represented there speak to the expansion of our energy markets in North America.

You've indicated that you're the co-chair of the Environment and Energy Security Committee within cabinet. Can you explain to us how that committee will deal with this act and what the relationship between this act and that committee will be?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Obviously, the notice of intent to regulate and the compliance mechanisms under it would be a chief priority of mine as Minister of the Environment. Obviously, that committee is there to provide greater focus and heightened priority of the issue.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

In the spirit of cooperation that we require on this committee to make this work, is your government prepared to put forward some details on the direction you think Canada's energy market should take in the future in relation to the important issues surrounding climate change?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We've begun to do so. We made an important announcement in Victoria with respect to renewable energy. That's an important step. My colleague Gary Lunn has talked about nuclear power.

Electricity, at least, is a provincial jurisdiction, and we're pleased to work with the provinces on ideas and suggestions. We've brought forth some of them, and we'll be bringing forward others in the future.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

The previous government and your government have carried on discussions and negotiations in North America, especially through the North American Energy Working Group. Are you prepared to put some of those discussions on the table for this committee to consider in terms of the directions you've been talking about with our major export customer on energy?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

There's been a lot of media attention paid to two meetings that took place in March 2005 and January 2006 between Mr. Martin and George Bush. I wasn't at those meetings, so I can't really enlighten you on what happened. I can say that if there are discussions that our government.... Mr. Dion, as Minister of the Environment, apparently wasn't involved in any of those.

If we're going to look at a potential increase in gas emissions, it should be considered in an integrated approach with the environment. That's what the Prime Minister has underlined by establishing that cabinet committee on environment and energy security, saying that they should be considered in tandem, which is I think responsible.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

At the natural resources committee we've seen that there are huge costs involved in cleaning our energy exports of fossil fuels. How does your government intend to pass those costs on to the ultimate customer and not foist those costs on Canadian taxpayers for the cleaning up of that industry?