Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) Committee on Feb. 8th, 2007

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Specifically, there are two things, industrial regulation and compliance mechanisms.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

We're in a phase in which we've considered expanding energy exports quickly. Are you prepared to put those conditions on the industry in a timely fashion so that the expansions that take place can truly represent the opportunity for clean energy?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Just changing the topic slightly, under the last government, one of the most successful programs they created for dealing with climate change was a program in which they transferred the money to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to set up a green fund. This identified literally hundreds of replicable projects across the country, with municipalities, to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

This fund of $500 million is a fund that is recycled. The money returns to the fund. It's an excellent program, but it is a small program for a large problem. Would you consider these types of fiscal instruments to increase the ability of Canadian municipalities to turn to renewable energy, turn to energy efficiency by using the quite successful program development that took place with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities?

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Make it a short answer, please, Mr. Minister.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Layton was very intelligent to get a cheque rather than a promise for the establishment of that fund. Certainly, that will be an issue that the Minister of Finance considers as he prepares his upcoming budget.

I do think clean energy has to be an important part of the mix. I know Ontario best when it comes to electricity, and what we're seeing—and this goes back to what one of the scientists said—is a cultural change. The energy mix in Ontario, for example, is growing considerably. We opened the first commercial wind farm when I was Minister of Energy.

The successive government has followed through and gone much farther, which I think is good for the environment. We have hundreds and hundreds of megawatts either up and running or under construction, and I think that just has to go into the mix.

Canadians want to see a strong renewable component in their energy mix. The extent to which we can work with the industry or work with provinces on that is something that's important.

It doesn't just have to be wind and it doesn't just have to be solar. It can be biomass or it can be geothermal. It can be expanding hydro or it can be micro-hydro. There are many options.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Thank you, Minister.

You're the final questioner, Mr. Jean. Do you plan to split your time with Mr. Paradis?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes, I do actually plan to split my time with Mr. Paradis.

Very quickly, this is my first question. Obviously, the fastest-growing polluting economies in the world, and also the countries that produce 70% of the greenhouse gases in the world, are not signatories to Kyoto. Canada has always been a leader on the world stage, and I would just like to have a very brief answer on whether you see that happening again in this particular file as a result of Bill C-30 and our initiative toward a cleaner environment. Do you see us being a world leader on the international stage?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I don't think we can be a world leader unless we take any action abroad. Around the world, it's known that we talk a good game but don't deliver. That's been the record since Kyoto was signed in 1997. If we're going to have any credibility, we have to take meaningful, realistic action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

When the discussion happens for the post-Kyoto regime, as has already begun, I think the G-8 plus five is probably a good place to start, because you do have countries like China, India, Brazil, and the United States at the table. I accept the notion that the industrialized world--the rich nations--has to provide leadership. That's important. But at the same time, when we're seeking to close down a number of coal-fired plants here in Canada and they're building such a huge number of them in China, it's certainly counter-productive. But we really don't have the right to complain about other countries until we get our own act together. I think Bill C-30 affords us that opportunity, along with the industrial regulation that will flow from the bill. And I think we can hit two birds with one stone and deal with air quality by making investments here.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Actually, I think they're building about one coal-fired plant a week in China right now.

My second question is this. Maybe part of the problem in the past, in terms of why we haven't had any real work done on the environment in Canada and abroad from Canadians, was the voluntary regime the Liberals were trying to put forward instead. I see the enforcement and penalty provisions that we're putting forward in Bill C-30. In fact, isn't it true that the environmental damages fund, which will be where any funds go from anybody who disobeys the law, is actually going to be used to remediate environmental damage that's been done throughout the country?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We'll be coming forward with specific compliance mechanisms as part of the regulatory regime. There will be a clear signal to industry on the consequences of not obeying the law.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

And will that money that is penalized and levied toward those companies be going toward cleaning up our environment as well?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We'll talk about the compliance mechanisms at the same time as the industrial regulations.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you very much.

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is said, minister, that at the time targets had been set in a haphazard way and that nothing had been done. Let me give you an analogy. Let us assume that it is 10:45 a.m. and that we are here in Ottawa and that I make a commitment to get you to Montreal by 1:30 this afternoon, and yet we continue talking here until 1:15. Because there is so little time, the only way out of the situation is to pay money. When people say that they can reach the Kyoto targets when we are so close to 2008, they would do that by paying money, but that does absolutely nothing for the environment.

So, minister, how will your approach regarding Bill C-30 help make Canadians confident that we will achieve some results, that we will have some realistic targets and that we will stop merely talking without doing anything, as happened in the past?

Second, what is your work plan regarding efforts to offset climate change with our international partners?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We will be regulating industry here in Canada in the short term, which is very important if we are to reduce greenhouse gases. We must also adopt some genuine compliance methods within these regulations. We are in the process of making decisions about this. I attach a very high priority to this issue, and I'm working very hard on it.

In the future, where Canada can, what we have to do is provide some leadership by playing catch-up and taking real action at home.

Also, we need measures to include China and to include India. Since 1997, China's economy has now become bigger than Canada's. That was not something that was the case in 1997. That growth has been fueled by coal in terms of its energy source.

And bringing in the countries that are party to Kyoto but don't have requirements under that schedule is something that's important.

Those will probably be the two chief things we try to bring to the table for that discussion. They are being discussed at the G-8 plus five, since Gleneagle, and that's important. Prime Minister Blair in the U.K. has certainly given them a priority, as has President Chirac. Certainly Chancellor Merkel has also indicated she will continue to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Our time is up.

I want to thank you, Minister, for coming.

I want to thank everybody for playing hard but not tearing your sweaters.

I'd like to see the subcommittee members up here for a couple of moments.

This meeting is adjourned.