Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) Committee on March 10th, 2011

[Georges Azzaria]

Of course, we have to find ways of doing things. That's why I'm telling you I'm not sure we're finding the right ways with this.

As Mr. Angus said earlier, in the late 1990s, the industry's tendency to sue Internet users, in my view, was not good. A different business model should have been developed more than 10 years ago to compete with the illegal supply. I think that was a historic business mistake on the industry's part.

I believe piracy has to be condemned and that ways have to be found to combat it. One of those ways would be a legal offer, a blanket licence. Another way would be a "notice and withdrawal" system. That's one of the ways that are easy to understand.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you.

This is my final question. You are a professor of law. Does the Berne three-step test and the previous Supreme Court decision in Canada provide us with sufficient case law to understand the notion of fair dealing?

[Georges Azzaria]

I imagine you're referring to CCH Canadian Ltd. v. Law Society of Upper Canada.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Yes.

[Georges Azzaria]

I don't think so. Instead I think we're going much further, that we're considering clause 29 of the bill, which concerns education, all non-commercial content generated by the user—I'm talking about the "reproduction for private purposes" exemption that we've talked about. If you consider sections 22 and 29, everything concerning recording for later listening and viewing, back-up copies, copies for broadcasters, I don't believe we're meeting the three-step test.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much, Mr. Azzaria.

I now give the floor to Mr. Pablo Rodriguez, for two minutes.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Azzaria, you said it might take two to three hours for some students to understand the bill, which I consider quite good. However, I agree with you that it is vague and that it can cause more problems than anything else.

With regard to the responsibility of Internet service providers, I believe that each of you has told us that the "notice and notice" system is not enough. Is that correct?

[Annie Morin]

No, it's not enough.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

What are you advocating then?

[Annie Morin]

We're suggesting at least the "notice and withdrawal" system, or else a solution that would involve more Internet service providers, particularly in a financial way, perhaps.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Legault, do you share that view?

[Raymond Legault]

Yes.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Azzaria, do you agree as well?

[Georges Azzaria]

"Notice and withdrawal" would indeed be the minimum, in my view. It's becoming roughly the international minimum. That's what we have to tell ourselves. Canada may isolate itself in the digital universe. I don't think this way is a good legislative strategy.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm going to go back to the ephemeral rights issue. Broadcasters told us last week that the copies they make for communication and broadcasting purposes have no value. Do you think that copy has any value?

[Annie Morin]

Yes, it definitely has value. In particular, it vastly facilitates their broadcasting activities and, if it had no value, they wouldn't invest as much in technology in order to be able to do it, clearly.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Legault?

[Raymond Legault]

I find it hard to understand why broadcasters claim they're paying for material twice. I heard the questions asked earlier. It seems to me that most broadcasters receive the CD or material free of charge, and they're currently receiving MP3 files. It seems to me that—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Azzaria.

[Georges Azzaria]

That's the price you have to pay for a licence. It's nevertheless an authorization. It's a use in the copyright sense. So that seems normal to me.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

What do you do with mashups, that content on YouTube? No one's really talked about that. Do you have a view on that subject?

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

I ask you to answer briefly, Ms. Morin.

[Annie Morin]

We're talking, for example, about people who decide to make a family video with background music and then put it up on YouTube.

Generally speaking, performers, at least those in the music industry, may eventually be in favour of this use. However, they'll wonder why no compensation is paid, as is currently the case in France, where negotiations are underway.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Yes, perfect. I believe you put it well.

You have no more time left, Mr. Rodriguez. I'm going to give Mr. Cardin two minutes.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Two minutes. You're generous, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, madam, gentlemen.

Mr. Azzaria, I have a question for you.

Mr. Del Mastro told us, citing Michael Geist, that the addition of the term "fair education" would make no change to the current revenues of the collective societies. What do you think about that?