Evidence of meeting #19 for Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was notice.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Library Association
It's in public libraries across the country where people spend a lot of time in pursuit of lifelong learning. The library community I think understands those uses and that a limited number of copies may be made to support that search for people so that they can continue their education long after their association with an educational institution. Limited copies for their own use, for their lifelong learning, are allowed under fair dealing.
Head, Writing and Publishing, Arts Disciplines Division, Canada Council for the Arts
We feel that the concept of fair dealing has led to a disagreement within the artistic and literary communities. We also feel that we should perhaps take time to clarify this concept so that the disagreement between the institutions, organizations and individuals is settled while we are studying the legislation, not later in court.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I found Madame Lavallée's wording or example interesting as it related to fair dealing. The translation was if she wanted to visit your house, she would ask to do so. The same thing applies to creators. I found that to be an interesting statement.
Mr. Rahn, you talked about copyright chill. And I'm trying to think about education-type situations. My wife is a teacher. I remember being in university, and I imagine the experience is a little different today from what it was then. A subject may be brought up in the class, a discussion may ensue, and someone might want to go on the Internet and look up something, or on YouTube to show something. But without fair dealing for education, I would imagine that chill would be very real. It would really impinge on the ability of the teacher, the professor, the educator to go with the flow as it relates to the classroom.
At the same time, on the other side, I do understand the concern of creators. And I think each of you would say that you work in fields where creation is critically important to your ability to function.
Ms. Owen, you talked about the Supreme Court's two-step test and the six criteria to determine fairness. Maybe elaborate a little more on that to give some assurance to folks who might be on the other side in the creative community, that having a free-flowing education system through fair dealing for education won't result in massive losses in revenue for them.
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Library Association
I think the guidance the Supreme Court gave us in the CCH case, for example, with the six tests that were part of a fair dealing analysis for us. We look at the provision for research and private study. One would ask those six questions when doing a fair dealing analysis. What is the impact of the dealing? How much is it? What are the alternatives to the dealing? Go through all six factors. When you go through all six factors and you end up with “no, this is fair”, you have exhausted any number of other avenues.
You look at, for example, the alternatives to the dealing when the alternative to the dealing is that you can buy a book for $4.95, or whatever the price of the book is. You have to go through each step of that analysis, and do it properly, so you can come up with something that is fair, that fits under the fair dealing analysis.
By following those six steps that were laid out for us, I think you would end up with a very small, specified exception to whatever it is for research and private study, which is the one we conduct most frequently.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
And of course one of the criteria is the effect on the market for the work. So it would stand to reason that if a significant loss of revenue would result from this fair dealing, that would not be considered fair dealing in the first place.
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Library Association
I think it is the parliamentary prerogative to set the parameters for whatever exception it is, so it complies with not interfering with the economic rights of the creator.
Conservative
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Federation for the Humanities and Social Sciences
Yes, I think the alternatives are very important. In the context where I teach--I teach tutorials, some with small groups, seminars, whatever--I don't have a complete reading list at the beginning of one of those courses that can be turned into a course pack and sold at the bookstore. I have a core bunch of reading for any particular course, but I will have to respond to students' special interests, aptitudes, and questions that come up. There is no time from week to week for me to seek a transactional, one-time-only licence from an author or from a rights holder. There is no alternative.
Should I be barred from using, say, six pages from a book that costs $80, or wait until the next year and force all the students to buy the $80 book for that six pages? It just bears no relationship to the actual on-the-ground experience of university faculty.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I'll stick with you, Mr. Rahn. You may have raised some heart rates on the opposition side by throwing in the recommendation that the phrase “such as” be added to fair dealing. Maybe you could elaborate on this. What would be the benefit of that, in your view?
Chair, Copyright Committee, Canadian Federation for the Humanities and Social Sciences
It would make us consistent with the United States, which has had “such as” in its copyright act for quite a while. In fact, with regard to education, it puts in parentheses, “including multiple copies for classroom use”, which is far beyond what any of the group here are recommending.
By the same token, and in response to Madam Lavallée's comments, one cannot say that artists have disappeared from the U.S. in the meantime. The publishing industry is going great guns down there, and a large part of the textbook industry in Canada consists of Canadianizing--at students' request and demand--materials from the United States. So I don't think we run any great risk of impoverishing our artists, creators, or publishers.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gord Brown
Thank you very much to our witnesses.
That brings this meeting to an end.
The meeting is adjourned.