Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) Committee on Dec. 13th, 2010

[John Staple]

I think we would be against an approach to defining education in a way that places restrictive boundaries around the kinds of activity that Canadians undertake as part of the whole process of lifelong learning and learning outside of the public school system.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

But within institutions to begin with.

[John Staple]

Yes.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Whatever you could give us would help.

Ultimately it's going to be nice for us to have a clear idea of what the education exemption means. Certainly, if the Supreme Court's six criteria are going to be the basis on which fair or unfair dealing is determined, it helps to have a definition of what is meant by education.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Mr. Garneau, thank you very much.

Ms. Lavallée, you have five minutes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much Mr. Chairman.

My question is for Mr. Brown. If Bill C-32 is passed, you say that you will lose 85% of your income. On the other hand, the representatives from the Canadian Teachers' Federation beside you say that they don't want to pay less. What exactly they do want is not easy to understand. They say that they want to pay copyright fees and that income won't go down. In that case, how do you explain the 85% reduction? I still don't understand their position.

[Douglas Arthur Brown]

For clarity, they're not in a position to decide whether or not to pay: they must pay. It's the law. That's the way it exists right now.

I've heard the question of clarity brought up several times in the past hour. Ms. Donnelly was asked a hypothetical question a little earlier. I'm paraphrasing here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but she was asked to give a definition of fair use in the sense that could she foresee, with the amendments, if they went through, there would be rampant photocopying of entire works?

With all due respect to Ms. Donnelly, she's not in a position to answer that question. And that's the problem with fair dealing, that it's not spelled out. We would have to go before the courts to get a clear definition of that.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

That would therefore mean that from now on educational institutions would be able to make as many photocopies as they wish without paying copyright fees?

[Douglas Arthur Brown]

Not necessarily. I mean, there will always have to be fees paid, but what fair dealing opens the door for is a definition, where there isn't right now, of what is fair use.

How much photocopying are we talking about? There are very clear regulations as it stands now. Without any definitive definition of fair use, again, we are put into a position where we would have to go to the courts to decide or at least support our belief that there was too much being photocopied.

I want to make it clear here that this is not a fight between educators and writers. The school system is very important for writers. When we are invited—and we're very proud to be invited—into schools, this is a point of entry for us into nurturing young minds and future readers. I reiterate that we just want to be able to be compensated for the use of our intellectual property. If people want to use it, and believe in it, it's worth paying for.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Your intellectual property is also in photocopies. Just because it's a photocopy, and not the whole document, doesn't mean that there is no intellectual property. Furthermore, a photocopy can be a condensed version of the created product, if I may put it in those words. Am I wrong?

[Douglas Arthur Brown]

Do you mean a review, or a critique of the work?

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

No. If, for example, a teacher copies a specific exchange from Corneille off a website, they are taking an essential part of a work to hand out to their students. Just because a copy represents a part of a work does not mean that that intellectual property does not belong to the author.

[Douglas Arthur Brown]

I think what you're addressing here is the fact that as creators we run the risk of having our work taken out of context. That is another issue that we writers are concerned about, the use of our material for personal purposes.

As it stands right now, that's another one of those grey areas. We don't know what personal use means, and who would have access to that. It is my understanding that most educators would not take that out of context, but--to answer your question--it could happen.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Do I still have time Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

You have one minute left.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I have a question for Mr. Staple and Ms. Donnelly.

Earlier on we were talking about the $5.16 that you're being asked to pay for each of your students. Does that fee include photocopies?

[John Staple]

That is for photocopying.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Now, if I understood correctly—and I'm still not sure if I have—are you asking that photocopies no longer be included?

[John Staple]

In terms of the costing, in terms of the $5.16?

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You no longer want to pay copyright fees for the photocopies that you do?

[John Staple]

No.

[Mary-Lou Donnelly]

No, we will continue to pay.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So you will continue to pay the $5.16. Fine.

In that case, why do you think that Mr. Brown, who is a brilliant writer and has even won awards, is telling us here today that Access Copyright will reduce his income by 85%? If you're still paying the same price then why is the writer beside you telling us that his income is going to go down by 85% if the bill is passed as it is currently worded?

[Mary-Lou Donnelly]

I don't know.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Because the amount you are paying will go down, that's what you think.

Mr. Brown, you are nodding your head. Did you want to make a comment?