Evidence of meeting #2 for Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offences.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Besner  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Good day, everyone.

Orders of the day are pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, March 27, 2007, Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences). We have the pleasure today of having the Hon. Rob Nicholson, Minister of Justice.

Welcome, monsieur le ministre.

Also appearing before the committee today, from the Department of Justice, Ms. Catherine Kane, Acting Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, as well as Ms. Julie Besner, Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section.

Welcome, Ms. Kane and Ms. Besner.

The floor is yours, Mr. Nicholson. You can start.

3:30 p.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm very pleased to be here. This bill proposes to amend the Criminal Code to establish a reverse onus in the case of bail hearings for firearm-related and other regulated weapons offences.

The issue of providing a reverse onus for bail hearings for certain serious firearms offences is one of the government's criminal justice priorities. In my view, the legislative reforms proposed in Bill C-35 are appropriately tailored to the concern that has been expressed by many Canadians recently about the release from custody of individuals accused of serious gun crimes, who pose a threat to public safety.

Bill C-35 proposes a reverse onus for eight serious offences when committed with a firearm. They are the following: attempted murder, robbery, discharging a firearm with criminal intent, sexual assault with a weapon, aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping, hostage-taking, and extortion.

A reverse onus is also proposed for any indictable offence that involves a firearm or other regulated weapon if committed while the accused is under a weapons prohibition order. These indictable offences are not limited to those that involve the actual use of a firearm or weapon. Furthermore, a reverse onus is proposed for the offences of firearm trafficking, possession for the purpose of trafficking, and firearm smuggling.

Bill C-35 contains another amendment, which is not a reverse onus proposal. It provides that the courts give consideration to the fact that a firearm was allegedly used in the commission of the offence, to decide whether or not the accused should be kept in custody, in order to maintain confidence in the administration of justice.

Finally, it proposes that the court also consider whether the accused faces a minimum term of imprisonment of three years or more for a firearm-related offence.

The presumption of innocence and the right not to be denied bail without just cause are both constitutionally protected rights in our criminal justice system. Bail, however, can be denied in certain circumstances, and the Criminal Code provides specific grounds upon which the courts are justified in keeping someone in custody before their trial. Bail can be denied when detention is necessary to ensure that the accused does not flee justice, to protect the public--for example, if there is a substantial likelihood that the accused will reoffend if released--or to maintain confidence in the administration of justice.

Normally, the Crown is the party that must show just cause for keeping the accused in custody before trial. However, in certain specific cases, the onus is on the accused to show that there is no justification for keeping him in custody.

The protection of the right to not be denied reasonable bail without just cause has led to a few important constitutional challenges, which were brought to the Supreme Court of Canada for decision.

It's worth noting that our Supreme Court has maintained that constitutional validity of certain circumstances triggering a reverse onus on bail. The Supreme Court of Canada acknowledged that this special bail rule is necessary to combat the pre-trial recidivism and absconding problems by requiring the accused to demonstrate that those risks will not arise.

It should be noted that there is unfortunately very little research available in Canada and elsewhere on the rate of reoffending by people out on bail. This is the case for offences in general and therefore also with respect to firearms offences specifically.

To date, the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics has not gathered such data. Some police services gather statistics on whether a person newly arrested was previously under some form of supervision order; that is, whether they were on bail, prohibition, parole, or subject to a peace bond. I believe the data the department has on this issue was provided, as it had been requested during the technical briefing shortly after the introduction of this bill.

It's important to note, however, that the approach taken with several of the proposals in Bill C-35 is consistent with the principles that underlie the current bail regime. The reform proposed in Bill C-35 builds on the existing reverse onus scheme to specifically include certain serious firearms offences.

I think Bill C-35 is not only a very sensible and focused piece of legislation, but it also reflects much of the guidance provided by the Supreme Court on the bail regime. Bill C-35 takes a very similar approach to the bail regime that already exists, but it focuses on the current gun crime problem, particularly as it relates to serious firearms offences or offenders who ignore court orders not to possess weapons. It also recognizes that firearm trafficking and smuggling operations are similar in nature to drug trafficking and smuggling, in the sense that such illicit activities form part of a larger organized crime setting.

I hope the committee, after studying Bill C-35, will agree that this bill will improve the state of law and therefore greater protect Canadians from the threat of firearm violence.

Officials from my department and I would be happy to respond to any questions you may have. In that regard, I am pleased to have with me Julie Besner as well as Catherine Kane, both from the Department of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me those opening comments.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We'll start now. According to our rules, it's seven minutes a round, and I'll be very strict.

We'll start with Mr. Murphy, please.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Chair, in other committees involving justice it is quite strict as well, so we'll find no difference with that.

Mr. Minister, thank you for coming. It's very good to see you. It's very good to have you here on a bill with which we largely will have no disagreement in principle. However, as you know, these committees are here for a purpose, to go through some of the technical aspects to ensure that due diligence has been given, not only, I am sure, at the departmental level, but obviously here at the legislative level.

Just by way of review, I think this department and you, Mr. Minister, are building on a number of amendments to judicial interim release, starting from the 1869 rule that it was always discretionary. There were a number of reforms, particularly in the last 30 years, with the Bail Reform Act and others, that clamped down on the discretion for many types of offences.

Cutting to the quick, the department, I take it, would be relying on Regina v. Hall and Regina v. Pearson, two cases out of the Supreme Court that I've had a look at. I will not lie to this committee. I did not read them in their entirety--yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Moore, I did not read them from end to end. However, I was interested to note that they were not unanimous decisions and they certainly couldn't have dealt with the same type of offences, because this legislation wasn't in existence.

Those two cases dealt--particularly I'm thinking of Pearson--with drug-related offences. I can see that some of the principles are transferrable. I agree with that. However, there are some concerns in the dissent on which I would want assurance that from the legislative due diligence point of view they have been covered off.

Mr. Minister, this is without any due disregard for your own esteemed opinion, being a Queen's counsel and a member of the legal bar for some time, but the department must, I think, assure this committee and this side that the guarantee of the presumption of innocence, both procedurally and substantively, has been satisfied with the interplay of sections 11 and 7 of the charter in writing this legislation. Perhaps I could ask one of your assistants, or one of the other witnesses, Mr. Minister, to assure the committee that this will be free of the charter challenge if it scripts Pearson and Hall correctly and doesn't fall into the trouble that some of the people and the justices in the dissenting opinions put forward.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

First of all, I'll turn it over, of course, to Ms. Besner, if she'd like to make some comments.

This piece of legislation keeps in mind three decisions, two of which you've mentioned, that have taken place in the last 17 years, in which the Supreme Court of Canada has pronounced on that. I'm of the opinion, and I think it's very clear, that we are building upon the principles that were affirmed by the Supreme Court, and in one case—I believe it's the Hall case—we are clarifying the language in the bill.

Before I turn it over, I am pleased that you are supporting, I believe. I think you said “largely in support in principle”. As a former government House leader, it always makes me a little nervous that it doesn't seem like unqualified support, but certainly we'll be looking to build upon that support, and I'm sure you'll be just as convinced as I am that this is a worthwhile and necessary piece of legislation.

Ms. Besner, if you would like to make any comments, you're welcome to.

3:40 p.m.

Julie Besner Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Thank you.

One point, Mr. Chair, that Mr. Murphy made toward the end of his question was the comment with respect to assurances that this bill is free of charter challenges. It needs to be emphasized that no one can provide those assurances. “Charter challenges” simply means that—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Successful charter challenges.

3:40 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Julie Besner

“Successful” charter challenges; I guess that's the word that was not included there. I just wanted to clarify that charter challenges will indeed occur, probably....

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

A charter challenge is always possible, of course.

April 16th, 2007 / 3:40 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Julie Besner

Yes.

In terms of some of the dissents in the Supreme Court rulings, specifically in Pearson—I believe Madam Justice McLaughlin was one of the dissenting justices in that decision, and she highlighted that the section should have failed because it didn't distinguish between small-time drug traffickers and large-scale drug traffickers.

With respect to Bill C-35, I can indicate to the committee that the firearms trafficking and smuggling offences targeted under Bill C-35 are the more serious offences that target that kind of activity. There are lesser included offences in the Criminal Code; for example, “unlawful transfer”, which I believe is at around section 102 or 103. There is also an equivalent “illegal importing” offence, which doesn't amount to as serious an offence as the smuggling offence.

The point I'm trying to communicate is that there are other offences that are available to address less serious breaches as criminal activity, though certainly where there is something that is of great concern to law enforcement, tools are available in the Criminal Code, and would be with a new reverse onus provision, for serious firearms traffickers and smugglers.

If you would like me to point out those offences in the code, I could. They're all in the area between sections 99 and 103.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Not really, but how much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

You have one minute, Mr. Murphy.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

One minute.

It's really all about the charter. I'm sorry for not making it clear that.... Of course, charter challenges can happen, and we know that. I was trying to make sure we had done our homework legislatively by asking the minister's staff, from the department itself, whether these would likely be successful on challenge.

It was not only the current chief justice, but a very well-respected jurist from New Brunswick, Justice La Forest, who joined in that dissent with some certain reasons that you have now explained to me, I think to my satisfaction, will not persuade a majority of the court currently.

Is there a recent decision dealing with the interplay of section 11 rights and section 7 that would be useful to us? That's what concerned me a little bit. I go back quite a ways. Wrapping up very quickly, could you just give us a citation of a more recent case? Hall and Pearson and the third one are from the 1990s.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Ms. Besner.

3:45 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Julie Besner

Indeed, Morales and Pearson dealt with paragraph (d) of section 11, which is the presumption of innocence; paragraph (e) of section 11, which is the right not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause; and section 7. With respect to Morales, that was indeed the case—and section 9 as well, for unlawful detention.

Pearson dealt with section 9 and section 11, paragraphs (d) and (e). Hall focused more on section 11, paragraph (d) and (e), the presumption of innocence and the right not to be denied bail without just cause, and not so much with section 7.

What's interesting about Hall, though, is that the court there had before it the issue of what was previously the “public interest” ground that was struck down in Morales, and five years later Parliament enacted what is currently the tertiary ground, which is the justification for the courts to deny bail if it's necessary to maintain confidence in the administration of justice. It was quite a lengthy judgment, where the court upheld that ground as being sufficient for legal debate.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Thank you, Ms. Besner.

Mr. Ménard.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Good day, Minister. Good day, Madams.

It's not so much the whole issue of the presumption of innocence that worries me. I believe the court has already ruled on that matter, so that's not where the problem lies. I only wonder why this provision is necessary.

First of all, we have to remind ourselves that we're dealing with bail through a judicial process. The Criminal Code already contains provisions whereby, in very specific instances, an accused cannot be released on bail. These include offences under section 469, and offences linked to organized crime or terrorist activities.

What I find intriguing is that the Minister notes that there are few statistics available on people who have been released on bail following a weapons-related offence. Yet, the bill focusses on this very matter.

How can the government draft a bill and not be able to provide us with concrete information? Given the way in which courts -- or in Quebec's case, justices of the peace -- administer justice, is there any reason to think...At this stage of the process, the courts are not ruling on a person's guilt.

How can you come before us without actual figures on the number of people who have been released on bail in the case of weapons-related offences, and at the same time ask us to adopt a bill that deals with this very issue? If your department has provided some figures, I haven't seen them. I don't know if any of my colleagues have seen them. I'd like you to provide us with data to back up the government's bill and to confirm the system shortcomings it is attempting to correct.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Mr. Minister.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Monsieur Ménard, for your questions.

We believe these will strengthen the provisions in the Criminal Code that allow a judge to make a decision that is in the best interest of protecting the public. I indicated in my opening remarks that the types of statistics--and we've provided some statistics to committee members previously on this--to prove or disprove what you're asking us to do aren't available. I suppose if there were statistics on how to conclusively prove what human behaviour will do or not do is always a challenge.

On the other hand, Monsieur Ménard, we have to maintain that confidence in the criminal justice system, and a reverse onus, we know, is already part of the provisions with respect to bail right now. Extending this to other firearms offences, and serious firearms offences, I think is perfectly consistent with that. It's certainly consistent with the public's concern about the proliferation of firearms in our society. A week doesn't go by that people aren't either writing to me or talking to me about problems with firearms-related crime in this country. So giving judges more of an ability to protect the public seems to be a good idea and should stand on its own.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Minister, a question comes to mind. Obviously, we too are concerned about firearms use. That explains why we are defending rather more staunchly than you are controlling firearms through a public registry. However, there's one thing I don't understand. It may already be the case, but what reason do we have to think that the courts will release people who have committed firearm-related offences? There are those who maintain that in 90% of the cases, bail will be denied these individuals.

The situation is similar to that when the government tabled Bill C-9 concerning conditional sentences of imprisonment. Had we listened to your predecessor, we would have gotten the impression that this was a common phenomenon throughout the system, whereas as we moved forward with our study, we came to the realization that conditional sentences of imprisonment accounted for 3% of the sentences handed down by the courts.

Therefore, when a bill is drafted, I expect that there is data to back it up. What is it about the system that you want to correct? As Minister of Justice, do you have any indications that judges are granting bail to people who have committed firearm-related offences?

You're asking us to adopt a new law. We're prepared to do so, but you have to understand that we will act with the rigour that is expected of parliamentarians. I for one believe that you're speaking in generalities this afternoon, without data to back up your statements. Unfortunately, we cannot pass legislation on that basis. I hope that down the road, your department can provide us with more information.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Mr. Minister.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I hope, Monsieur Ménard, that you and your party are going to support this bill. This does have widespread support, and with respect to the actions of justices of the peace--

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

You are popular, not the bill.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Yes, we're popular too. I think our crime agenda is certainly contributing to the well-being of the government at the present time.

I think one of the things that should be underlined here is that the justices of the peace in your example ultimately have the right to make the decision they believe is in the best interest of the public. Giving them more tools or explaining to them the options they have, or indeed placing an onus on an individual who quite clearly, in my opinion, should demonstrate why they should be released, are steps in the right direction. But ultimately, if the justices of the peace in your constituency or others find that all these individuals should be released and that they're not satisfied that for the protection of the public, for people's respect for the administration of justice, or indeed if there's not a problem with individuals possibly reoffending, they have that right. They can release any or all of them, for that matter. But I think it's incumbent upon us as legislators to give them guidance in line with what I think most Canadians would think is very reasonable.

In my opening comments I said we're just building, basically, on the principles that are in the Criminal Code now that have been affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Sir, I don't doubt that you are acting in good faith, but from the standpoint of rigour, your bill is flawed because you cannot provide us with any relevant data.

For example, why isn't manslaughter or firearms-related criminal negligence included in the list of offences to be added to the existing list of offences subject to the reverse onus scheme? What reason did you have for singling out these particular offences? Why did you exclude criminal negligence and manslaughter from the list?