Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) Committee on April 25th, 2007

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chair, I want to express my complete astonishment. This is the second time that, as parliamentarians, we have been asked to vote on bills without being given convincing and conclusive data. This is not the fault of the people before us, although they could have provided us with more details. I do not understand how the government can submit a bill to members of Parliament when we do not know the real extent of the bail granted by the courts. I have to say that it is beyond me how we can ask people to do thorough work when we do not even have statistics. This proves that Bill C-35 is all about ideology, and that it is not based on any statistical reality in the administration of justice. I am disappointed because I have a high opinion of you, but we cannot work like this.

Nevertheless, let us try to see what kind of information we need. I am going to provide Mr. Petit with all kinds of fond memories, since he has appeared before the courts often. Subsection 515(6) of the Criminal Code states that the burden of proof is reversed for seven offences, including indictable offences, terrorism and violations of conditions, and that the judge will not grant bail. Otherwise, the person is released.

So I thought we were talking about release on bail.

I want to come back to some specific questions on the figures that you have prepared. When the burden of proof is reversed and there are grounds to believe that evidence will be destroyed, that the person is a security threat, or that he will not appear at his trial—it is all in subsection 515(10) of the Criminal Code—he must not be granted bail. This is the bill we are discussing. The government says that we are going to reverse the onus for seven other offences. The seven offences that it wants to add to subsection 515(6) are robbery, discharge of a firearm, weapons trafficking, kidnapping, attempted murder, extortion and sexual assault.

On pages 2 and 3, you list the seven offences that will be added to subsection 515(6). I suppose that the figure 3,505 indicates the number of charges that have been laid by the police or the Crown. Of the 3,505 counts of robbery, 1,117 have been by indictment, and therefore not by summary procedure.

Is that what these figures mean?

[Craig Grimes]

Yes.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

For us, whether the prosecution uses summary procedure or indictment does not affect bail, the right to be released, or not, before trial. What this confirms is that Canadian society is less violent and that fewer offences are committed with firearms. All the opposition parties said this when Bill C-10 was being studied. But the government did not listen to us. Not that it does not like us, but it was in ideology mode.

I trust that Mr. Petit will not say that on the radio. But if he does, I will defend myself.

The justice system tends to remand people more than in previous decades. In the statistics that you have provided, I find two are very relevant. In 1995-1996, 28% of adults were remanded in custody, while in 2004-2005, the figure was 50%. The only scientific conclusion that can be drawn is that courts dealing with the seven offences that you spoke to us about are more likely to keep people in custody than to release them.

Am I correct in my understanding?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

Madam Barr-Telford.

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

We can't directly speak to what is happening with respect to those particular offences and the awarding of pretrial detention, for example, with this particular slide. We do see the increase, and we have seen an increase, in the number of adults being held in non-sentence custody, and we have seen a changing composition in the custodial population. That is what we have shown in slide 8. We have seen that.

What are some of the underlying factors that may be producing that? It's difficult for us to say that any one factor is producing that, but some of the factors that may be related to this shifting composition in custodial are these: a change in bail practices could be related; complexity of court cases, for example, taking longer and being more complex in nature, can also have an impact on the increased custodial population.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Let me stop you right there. There can be a number of reasons why bail is granted less frequently. Maybe we are talking about people charged under section 469 of the Criminal Code who are not eligible for bail, or because, under subsection 515(10), the judge is convinced that these people are going to destroy evidence, that they will not appear for their trial, or that they represent a security threat.

These three types of offences, for which remand is not possible, say nothing about firearms or offences committed with firearms. This is why the government's logic is extremely difficult to follow in this bill. On the one hand, you tell us that fewer and fewer crimes are committed with firearms, and for those that are, we do not know how a judge will rule on granting bail. But at the same time, we are being asked to extend reverse onus.

Do you realize our situation when it comes to thoroughness and the ability to do our jobs in a serious way?

I have no wish to embarrass you, and you know that my diplomacy skills are legendary. But the government's bill is not supported by any statistical reality. Show me one page of your presentation that could lead us to conclude that the government's case for extending reverse onus when firearms are involved is well-founded. Is there one statistic that could in any way give credibility to the government's bill?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

Mrs. Barr-Telford.

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

What I can do from the point of view of Statistics Canada is provide you with information relevant for your consideration. I cannot speak beyond that point. I can tell you the number of incidents that occurred in 2005 for a Bill C-35-related offence. I can tell you the number of court cases that were disposed of in 2003-04 for a Bill C-35-related offence. I can tell you about conviction rates and I can tell you about remands. That's what I can tell you.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

We need to know, when offences are committed with firearms, and the situation corresponds to what a judge can do under section 515 or subsection 506(10), if judges release people on bail or not.

Mr. Chair, this is the matter that we are being asked to vote on. We are being asked to add to the list of offences where the burden of proof lies with the accused by adding those committed with firearms.

All the other statistics are much less relevant. Before I can vote, I need to know if judges are or are not releasing people who commit offences with firearms, as is suggested on pages 1 and 2, and who are eligible for bail. Let us be clear on that. If we do not have those statistics, we will not be able to vote with due consideration. Regrettably, I must tell my ministerial colleagues that we cannot act out of pure ideology. I am not saying that a crime committed with a firearm is not a significant factor in our society, but I am surprised that we are unable to substantiate it. It is important.

[Art Hanger, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

He speaks like a lawyer.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

What's wrong with that?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do I speak like a lawyer? You speak like a policeman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

Have you finished, Mr. Ménard?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I have finished.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

Mrs. Barr-Telford, please.

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

Just for clarification purposes, what you'll find on slides 2 and 3 are offences involving firearms that are covered under the Bill C-35 legislation—robbery with a firearm, discharge of a firearm with intent to cause bodily harm, and a series of weapons-trafficking offences covered under Bill C-35.

On page 2—that has national coverage—you can also see the number within those overall offences that were cleared by charge by the police.

In slide 3, this is a subset of police services, but these are offences involving firearms as listed in Bill C-35, for clarification purposes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bernard Patry]

Thank you.

Merci, Monsieur Ménard.

We'll go to Monsieur Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here.

Mr. Grimes, on the new information you're going to be gathering, you said, at the end of the year, will you have some results by the end of the year, or will you just start gathering them? When are we going to see the first results of that data you're collecting now?

[Craig Grimes]

I'm not sure when we're going to see results. We have a project to put together the two data files. Before we see results we've got to work out the methodology, the method for putting those files together, to ensure we've accurately identified individuals in one file and matched them with individuals in the other file.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So at least a year or maybe two before we see the first results?

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

What we are proposing on this particular project is that right now it's scheduled to be a two-year project. The first year will be the feasibility and the methodological work to see whether or not we can continue into the second year to produce results from that study.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are you only doing it as an experiment in certain parts of the country, or are you doing the whole country?

[Craig Grimes]

Every jurisdiction is providing both integrated criminal court data and integrated correction data. With the release of the new file for courts, we've separated the appearance type and appearance result. We hope we'll be able to speak more to the appearance results related to remand or release. We also have a field on that file for remand, identifying the reason for remand. The hope is that with the combination of those two things, we'll be able to speak to these issues in clear terms.

These are projects for collecting data that have been ongoing for two or three years. It's taken a number of years to set up the system to collect this information from all these jurisdictions.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In terms of the remand or the pre-sentence custody, you mentioned the immigration figures are in there. Do you have any sense of what proportion? I could imagine that could be a fairly significant proportion, or is that incorrect? Could 50% be immigration cases?

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

Our non-sentence custody is made up of two components: the remand, which is a court-ordered detention awaiting a further court appearance, and the other is temporary detention. Those are the individuals who are not on remand, but they can be there for other reasons like immigration or parole suspension and so forth.

I do not have the breakdown of those figures with me. I would have to ask back at the office whether or not we can do so. We can certainly follow up with the committee on whether or not we can do that.