Evidence of meeting #3 for Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offences.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lynn Barr-Telford  Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Craig Grimes  Project Manager, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
John Turner  Chief, Policing Services Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Good afternoon, everyone.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, March 27, 2007, we are going to be considering Bill C-35, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences.

As witnesses this afternoon, from Statistics Canada's Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, we have Mrs. Lynn Barr-Telford, the director; Mr. John Turner, the chief of the policing services program; and Mr. Craig Grimes, project manager for the courts program.

I understand you have one opening statement. Who's going to do it?

Go ahead please, Ms. Barr-Telford.

3:35 p.m.

Lynn Barr-Telford Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

I'd like to thank the committee for the opportunity to appear today to present data for your consideration with respect to Bill C-35, reverse onus in bail hearings for firearm-related offences.

Let me begin by outlining where we can and cannot provide data relevant to this bill. We cannot provide data on the granting of bail—for example, how often bail was granted when an accused was charged with a firearm-related offence. We also cannot identify where an offence was committed by an accused on bail.

What we can provide is information on the number of police-reported incidents where the offence involved a firearm and to which this bill specifically applies.

We can present national data for three offence types under consideration: robbery, discharging a firearm with intent to cause bodily harm, and weapons trafficking. We can also present information on kidnapping, extortion, attempted murder, and sexual assault levels 2 and 3 from a subset of police services representing just over 60% of the national volume of crime. As well, we can provide data from our courts statistics program on the processing of cases involving firearm-related offences. Finally, we can look at the use of pretrial detention with our Correctional Service data. For any data, the limitations are noted in the footnotes on the slides.

If you turn to slide 2, for the three offence types with national coverage of police-reported incidents, we see that in 2005 there were just over 3,500 robberies with a firearm. Of these, 1,117 were cleared by the laying of a charge by police. There were 252 police reported incidents of discharge of a firearm with intent, and 111 were cleared by way of charge. In addition, as a group, there were 147 weapons trafficking offences, which in our data set include Criminal Code sections 99, 100, 101, 103, and 104.

On slide 3, with respect to the other offences covered by Bill C-35, we have information on the number of incidents involving a firearm from a sample of police services representing 62% of the national caseload; thus this chart may underrepresent the total number of such incidents.

Kidnapping includes forceable confinement and hostage-taking. There were 258 such incidents reported in 2005, and 134 of these were cleared by way of charge. We also know that based on this sample of police services, with respect to Bill C-35 offences, robbery with a firearm makes up the large majority of such offences, about 80%. This is the largest offence by volume on the list.

Turning to slide 4, we also know that the rate of robbery with a firearm has been dropping over the past decade. It's down about 50%. In total, there were almost 29,000 robberies in 2005. The robbery rate was 3% higher than in 2004; however, this was about 15% lower than a decade ago and 25% lower than the 1991 peak.

Over half of the robberies reported to police in 2005 were committed without a weapon. Firearms were used in 12% of robberies in 2005, while just under one third involved another type of weapon.

If we turn to our courts data for 10 jurisdictions, where we can identify a firearm offence, we can look at the processing of offences identified in Bill C-35. For 2003-04, we found that 871 cases, representing 1,633 charges with an offence identified in Bill C-35, were disposed of in adult criminal courts. These 871 cases include cases where multiple charges have been laid, and at least one of these charges was for a C-35 offence. It may not, however, be classified as the most serious offence. So while it may be labelled on the graph as a drug-trafficking case, there is within this case a Bill C-35 charge.

Given what we saw on our police-reported data, it is not surprising to find that robbery accounts for over 40% of BillC-35 cases disposed of in 2003-04. Weapons trafficking represented 15% of Bill C-35 cases. In approximately two-thirds of the cases—563 of the 871—a Bill C-35 charge was the most serious offence in the case.

If you turn to slide 6, also from our courts data, we see that the overall conviction rate for cases with a Bill C-35 charge is 40%. This is significantly lower than the 58% overall conviction rate for all federal statute offences in 2003-04 and lower than the overall conviction rate of 48% for crimes against the person offences. One possible reason for this, as we've seen in our data, is that an accused person is less likely to plead guilty to a more serious charge and/or one that carries a mandatory minimum sentence, which we know applies for a number of the Bill C-35 offences.

Once a Bill C-35 case is found guilty, 77% of these cases result in a term of imprisonment. The average length of custody for these cases was 1,101 days. This reflects the average sentence imposed on the most serious offence in the case. Overall, the average case processing time for cases with a Bill C-35 charge was 221 days, which is almost the same as the average for all federal statute offences in 2003-04.

If you turn to the next slide—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

What slide is that, Mr. Chairman?

3:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Lynn Barr-Telford

It's slide 7.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I must say that personally I'm losing a grip on some of this. I don't want to be critical, and it's good to have the data, which we can review later, but I lost you a few minutes ago.

3:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Lynn Barr-Telford

Would you like me to go back?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

No, and I don't know if other members feel the same way, but I think it's important that if you have a slide, you allow us a moment to understand the purpose of the slide. The data may be revealing. I know you've been through this maybe a hundred times and you prepared it, but just because you read the heading on the slide doesn't mean we, all around this table, immediately grasp it.

I'm sorry to interrupt. You can carry on, but I would invite you to check on the faces of the members around the table to make sure we're still with you.

3:40 p.m.

An hon. member

Make it simple.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

We are now on slide 7.

3:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Lynn Barr-Telford

We are on slide 7. If we look at only those cases where we had a Bill C-35 charge as the most serious offence, we saw that the overall conviction rate was 31%. According to our courts data, we found that 84% of these convicted cases, where the Bill C-35 charge was the most serious offence, had a guilty plea. This was lower than the overall 90% of guilty pleas for convicted cases.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Again, I'm sorry, you were referring to numbers that don't show on the face of the slide. It's impossible for me to extrapolate where you're heading if I look at a bunch of numbers and you mention another number that I can't see anywhere.

April 25th, 2007 / 3:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Lynn Barr-Telford

What we will do for the committee is provide you with the complete set of speaking notes and so forth following the presentation. Once they're available in both official languages we'll provide them to you.

In this slide you can see, by offence type, the percent resulting in a conviction. Where the Bill C-35 offence was the most serious, the overall conviction rate was 31%. You see it listed by offence type within the slide, but the overall was 31%.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

If I understand the one you made on page 7, from 40%, 39%, 38%, to 10%, all of these together, 31% is what you mean.

3:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Lynn Barr-Telford

That's true, as an overall average.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

I just want to be sure that I also follow you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

If something isn't covered on the slide, just say it isn't there.

3:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Lynn Barr-Telford

Okay, that's fair enough.

So not covered on the slide are the 84% of convicted cases where the charge was for a most serious offence having a guilty plea. It was lower than 90% of guilty pleas for overall convicted cases.

Also not on the slide—we know that for the offences that result in a conviction—the rate of imprisonment is 85%. The average prison sentence is 1,554 days.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Excuse me, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Mr. Petit.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Is it possible to ask the witness to speak a little more slowly? The interpreter does not have the French text, and they are chasing around for translations.

Do you have the French text for the interpreter?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

No.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

So we will just have to go a little more slowly because this is technical data.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

That's fine, Ms. Barr-Telford. You understand?

3:45 p.m.

Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada

Lynn Barr-Telford

Absolutely.

Let's repeat that for offences that resulted in a conviction, the rate of imprisonment was 85% and the average prison sentence was 1,554 days.

Also not included on the slide, but further information, the average case processing time for the cases where a Bill C-35 offence was the most serious offence was 227 days.

I'll ask the committee to turn to slide 8. This provides information on remand and other temporary detention coming from our Correctional Service program. We've seen a decline in the provincial-territorial sentence custody population, and it's coincided with an increase in the non-sentence custody remand population. This has dramatically shifted the composition of adults in custody in provincial-territorial jails.

In 1995-96, adults in non-sentence custody represented 28% of all those in provincial-territorial custody.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

This is covered on the slide?