Evidence of meeting #8 for Bill C-35 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was statistics.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gary Mauser  Criminologist, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay, that's a value judgment to be debated.

Another question is, would you agree with a number of other witnesses who basically said this bill wouldn't achieve very much? In fact, you've added to their arguments by saying there are very few gun crimes among violent crimes. And they've already said that most of the people who are violent and likely to reoffend are already kept in jail during bail hearings by judges, so this will make very little difference. You've even exacerbated that by saying that this captures very few of those crimes anyway.

3:50 p.m.

Prof. Gary Mauser

Well, if you're raped, murdered or killed just one person, that is a tragedy. And if this Parliament figures that cutting back the percentage, whatever it is, in half is trivial, then yes, it is trivial.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ménard, please.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Good afternoon.

You are a regular at this committee. You are obviously one of the government's favourite references. That affection is not limited to the government, since all committee members welcome your appearance. That said, I must admit that I am having a hard time understanding how your testimony today is of any help to us in understanding this bill. It seems to me that if we refer only to the statistics that you have quoted, if we interpret them in their strictest sense, it would mean that the government should draft a bill that would not deny bail for offences committed with a firearm but rather, for offences committed with knives or bladed weapons.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

We need a knives registry.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Petit says that we need a registry for knives, and it is probably because of his cutting wit that he has made that suggestion.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

That's not very sharp!

3:55 p.m.

Some voices

Oh, oh!

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

We are getting a little giddy as the end of the session approaches.

Seriously though, I would like to ask you the following question. We can understand the government's intention, but you must admit, as a man of science and a university professor, and as someone with a Ph.D in criminology, that there is no hard evidence that would lead us to believe that justices would grant bail to just about anyone who appears before them. On the contrary, defence attorneys and all of those who have appeared in court have made it clear to us that people are not regularly released on bail if they have committed a crime using a firearm.

Finally, will you not admit, based on scientific evidence and hard data, that the government did not base its bill on any available data?

3:55 p.m.

Prof. Gary Mauser

When students ask difficult questions—

3:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:55 p.m.

Prof. Gary Mauser

—I often paraphrase the question to be able to understand it and formulate a reasonable answer. So let me start by trying to paraphrase you, and I trust you will correct my paraphrase.

The data that lawmakers have available to them are terrible. Either in my hands or any of the other witnesses', there simply is not good data available to make solid decisions. Second—and I don't think I'm surprising you with this—this is not my fault. If I could control StatsCan, I'd make it better, but at this point we must live with what we have.

So the question is about the solidity, the value, of the data, I believe. But, please, correct my inadequate paraphrase.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

When a professor does not answer my question, he gets a poor rating from me at the end of the term, but I am sure that that is not your intent.

These are the facts. The lawyers who appeared before us said that when an offence is committed with a firearm, the judges or justices of the peace do not release the perpetrator. That is what you must remember. Did the government draft a bill that is based on shaky data? Whether you are talking about someone who has committed an assault with a firearm or with a knife, that has nothing to do with the substance of the bill. On what evidence or for what objective do you support the bill? What you have told us has nothing to do with the substance of the bill.

3:55 p.m.

Prof. Gary Mauser

Perhaps I should have said it explicitly. I am not a lawyer. Nothing I intended to say or have said speaks to the letter of the law. If that was not obvious in claiming that I was a social scientist, I apologize. Perhaps lawyers think of themselves as social scientists.

What I am presenting to you can certainly be dismissed if you don't appreciate it, but I thought it might be valuable to the committee to understand the actuarial existence of crime and its costs in Canada.

Lawyers, despite living in legal worlds, must touch down into reality. Lawmakers' laws have real effects on real people. I certainly agree with the point that nothing I have said speaks to the details of the law. It informs you about things that other statistical witnesses did not say, and that I think are important, and that is to say that guns are not the only violent weapon that one should be concerned with. Since the word “gun” appears in the law, this strikes me as legally relevant. Second, the cost to victims is important, as well as the cost to prisoners and taxpayers, and I've not seen the emphasis.

For example, in the tables on reoffending, it's a glass half full or a glass half empty. To rehabilitate is a glorious goal, but this is not always possible. By letting out people who have not been rehabilitated, there is a high cost to the Canadian public. Statutory release forces prisons to let people out before they have even received the treatment the law suggests they be entitled to. By statutory release, not only are we imperilling citizens, but we are not fulfilling our promises to rehabilitate.

I'm not ignorant or insensible to the costs that prisoners bear.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Your time is up, Mr. Ménard.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Already? My, how time flies when you are having fun.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Mr. Comartin.

4 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

We'll go to Mr. Hanger.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Thank you.

Mr. Mauser, some of your stats reflect the issue that many offenders, upon being released, show the propensity to go back to committing a similar crime within a certain timeframe.

4 p.m.

Prof. Gary Mauser

That's right.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

The bill we're dealing with, of course, deals with bail—reverse onus on bail hearings for firearm-related offences. That release then throws the offender out into the community again. The question here is, by doing that, are we revictimizing or victimizing additional people, or if we cut that bail and prevent him from getting out, are we not creating more victims?

4 p.m.

Prof. Gary Mauser

That isn't the intent of—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Your information here?

4 p.m.

Prof. Gary Mauser

Yes.