Canada-China Relations Committee on Aug. 11th, 2020

[Alex Neve]

I'm sorry that you seem to have interpreted my remarks as a shrug or a lack of concern, because that could not be further from the truth. Amnesty works relentlessly to respond to human rights violations in China and in Hong Kong. We have been very actively engaged around the cases of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, including regular exchanges with their families discussing strategic possibilities. So I guess I would want to correct whatever reason you have to believe that we're not concerned about the situation on the ground.

I think I was trying to flag that, obviously, when deciding on what would be the most effective and constructive response and strategy going forward, it's vital that Canada be considering a range of consequences and implications. That includes, yes, whether there is a possibility that, if we do x, it may increase the risk for Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. I didn't say that means don't do it, but that obviously is something that the government should be considering. We also should be assessing whether it is useful or effective for us to go it alone to do a particular measure or whether we should really invest our energy into getting some other partners so that it can be advanced in concert. It's all about—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay. I do appreciate you raising that, sir. I do believe your organization has done good work. It's just that I think we need to challenge this underlying assumption that if we do anything or speak out, we will be harmed as a country or as Canadians. That is always the threat, but I think it's a greater threat if we allow people to bully our country and our citizens, whether abroad or at home.

Speaking to that earlier, sir, you mentioned that there are some things domestically. Our own security agencies, I believe, are quite attuned to the threats we're seeing to our citizens. You said there were some basic things that this government or previous governments did not put in place to check foreign interference. Could you elaborate on that?

[Alex Neve]

I'll certainly share the report with the committee so that you can see this in greater detail. One thing we highlight is that when individuals do experience these kinds of threats, which are often, as I said, threats of violence and sexual violence or threats to the safety of family members abroad, it's very unclear where they turn to. They go to the RCMP and they're told it's a municipal police matter. They go to the municipal police force and they're told they should go to CSIS. They go to CSIS and they're told, it's really for diplomats; report it to Foreign Affairs.

It goes nowhere. It doesn't even get gathered up in one coherent place so that the government and agencies involved can really develop a clear picture of what's happening and go forward with the right responses. Something as simple as that is what we need to see happen.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Albas—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I just want to make sure it's on the record, Mr. Chair. As a parliamentarian, I want—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry, Mr. Albas. It's no longer your turn to speak. I'm sure there will be time for debate and other matters in the future, and of course we're making that important distinction.

We will now go to Ms. Zann for five minutes.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I am a big fan of Amnesty International. I have actually been a member of it for many, many years. You do such great work. Thank you very much. Please keep it up.

The Government of Canada has already characterized China's national security law for Hong Kong as a violation of international obligations. The Minister of Foreign Affairs, François-Philippe Champagne, has announced that, going forward, Canada will not distinguish between Hong Kong and China concerning the exportation of sensitive goods, and it will not permit the exportation of sensitive military items to Hong Kong. Canada is also suspending its extradition treaty with Hong Kong.

In your opinion, Mr. Neve, what impact would these measures have on the situation in Hong Kong and on Canada's relationship with China? Also, what exact additional steps could the Government of Canada take, in your opinion, to help safeguard Hong Kong's autonomy and political freedoms and to support those who are seeking to advance democracy in Hong Kong?

I know that is a packed question, but our time is short.

[Alex Neve]

Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to have an exchange with an Amnesty member.

Yes, the steps that Canada has taken so far matter and are welcome. I think all of us in some way, shape or form have referred to the suspension of the extradition arrangement and the tightening of controls on military and other sensitive transfers, and have noted that this question of Magnitsky sanctions, for instance, is in play. All of that does matter, and we should continue to explore what more we can do, even on a bilateral basis.

I would come back to the point I've been trying to stress: I think much of Canada's value is in really pursuing those kinds of measures, and others, in multilateral ways. If anything is going to start to build pressure on China, it is for the chorus of international concern to be not only the same countries time after time but a broader group and a larger group. I think Canada has some real strength to offer on that front.

In terms of very concrete measures, I would highlight, in my list of five, the two that are maybe the most immediate and concrete. The first is the recommendation I highlighted with respect to the refugee situation: readying for the fact that there may be an increased number of individuals looking to Canada for refugee protection, and not only being prepared to provide it ourselves, but also readying an international response if those numbers become really high. The second is about the concerns over what's happening here in Canada to activists who are receiving threats.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you.

I know the Government of Australia has announced new visa arrangements, allowing extensions with a pathway to permanent residency for Hong Kong passport holders who have a temporary skilled visa or a graduate visa. The Government of the United Kingdom has created a new immigration mechanism to allow about 2.9 million British nationals overseas from Hong Kong to apply for a visa of up to five years. After that they can apply for settled status and then naturalization, which sounds extremely good to me.

What is currently known about the number of democracy activists and political figures who may be seeking to leave Hong Kong? Will they be allowed to leave or are their passports being taken away?

[Alex Neve]

I wonder if Sophie may have more insight on that front than I do.

[Sophie Richardson]

It's difficult to have numbers or lists. These are decisions people are making very quickly, under duress and often with discretion. I can share with you that we have encouraged people we know who are seeking shelter to contact a set of governments that we believe will mobilize quickly to assist them, and that does include Canada.

I will add one other quick point on the issue of exports and sales, and what to restrict. We've done quite a bit of work on abuses of surveillance technology across China in the last few years—biometrics, AI, you name it. I think it really is incumbent on governments that are concerned about these issues to think about limiting any of the exports of technology or services that enable rights-abusing surveillance and to look very carefully at the kinds of research partnerships or investments made by Chinese companies or institutions inside Canada with academic institutions or simply as a vendor of products and services. I think there's much to do there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Richardson.

Thank you, Ms. Zann.

We'll now go to Mr. Genuis for five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I want to start by echoing what Mr. Albas said on hostage diplomacy. I think if we go down the road of considering policy concessions in response to hostage diplomacy, then we just invite the massive expansion of that hostage diplomacy and we also limit our ability to ever do anything that's contrary to Chinese state interests. I would really encourage members of the committee to make decisions about what is right and what's in our strategic interests, and protect ourselves and not be victims to this kind of hostage diplomacy calculation.

Mr. Neve, I was very struck by your comments about government inaction around foreign state interference. I look forward to the written follow-up on that, and I hope we as a committee are able to study that issue further and come out with specific recommendations. I know it's an issue that other committees, maybe the public safety committee but also the intelligence review committee, have taken up as well, the issue of foreign state interference and how that impacts Canadians, and their response.

On the immigration piece of this, I'm very concerned that there's a risk that the Chinese state will take action to try to prevent immigration and to prevent the return to Canada of Canadian citizens. We've already seen some noises in this direction in the case of U.K. government policy and a response from China. What do you think the likelihood of that is? As we have called on the Government of Canada to have a plan for facilitating the reunification of Canadians, as well as dealing with the asylum piece of this, what could China do and what could Canada do in response to ensure that reunification and asylum can take place in response to countermeasures?

Ms. Richardson, you could start, and then we'll go to the other two after that.

[Sophie Richardson]

Sure. On the point about what to do to protect citizens, the Chinese government doesn't recognize dual citizenship. As a practical matter, I think probably the most urgent thing to do is to assess on what status dual citizens are in Hong Kong, meaning if they've entered Hong Kong on their Hong Kong status rather than their Canadian status. I don't know what mechanisms are available to change that, but at least it gives the Canadian government a slightly superior claim to those people in defending their interests.

I think making it very clear to Beijing that any efforts to deny people the ability to leave or reunify with family members would be an issue of the highest concern. Let's recall that the Chinese government has detained and held for decades people who are citizens of other countries and simply refused to acknowledge their citizenship and, therefore, the ability of representatives of those other governments to have access to them.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, to zero in on that, do you think there is a reasonable risk that the Chinese government could, on a widespread scale, seek to prevent Canadian citizens in Hong Kong from returning home, especially if they travel on their Hong Kong status?

[Sophie Richardson]

It's hard to predict, but a few senior officials have floated that idea, perhaps to test the response. I think that's why an unambiguous response is important. If you look at the track record of how other dual nationals the Chinese government wants to control have been treated, the finds aren't great.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

Mr. Neve, I'd like your comments on that, please.

[Alex Neve]

I was going to make some of the same points that Sophie made.

I would add that, given this backdrop of concern about China's unwillingness to recognize dual nationality—and of course we've seen it in Huseyin Celil's case now for 14 years—I think, if you add to that an overlay of arbitrariness, the very real concern is that it may well be the dual nationals who are at the greatest risk, who are the ones least likely to have their Canadian citizenship recognized. There may be others, around whom there's not a lot of political or other interest, who would be able to leave fairly smoothly.

There's going to need to be a very sophisticated and multi-layered and multilateral—there's that word again—strategy here.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Keram, in the time left, do you want to briefly wade in on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You have 15 seconds.

[Akram Keram]

Sure. I think it is quite important to take some action, because I'm afraid if it's a risk later, the risk will turn to threats by the CCP. We don't want to see thousands of Michaels being hijacked and then kept inside either Hong Kong or mainland China to be used as leverage to continue to serve CCP's own political ambitions and geopolitical strategies, which will in the end create some threats to freedom and democracy in Canada as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Keram

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The risk to thousands of Michaels is very poignant. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Genuis, your time is up.

The next five minutes are going to be shared by Ms. Yip and Mr. Dubourg, I understand.

Go ahead, Ms. Yip.