Canada-China Relations Committee on Aug. 11th, 2020

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

This is a very important conversation.

I want to thank all the witnesses for the courage they've shown in coming forward to help us understand that this is not only a Hong Kong and China problem but is also a Canadian sovereignty and security problem, and we don't have the luxury of time. We must act with a sense of urgency, if I'm accurately appreciating and understanding what you're saying.

To be able to provide recommendations to government, we need specifics. Ms. Fung and Ms. Wong have both identified the incredible importance to having legislation to combat foreign influence, not only around diplomats and other things but around academia, journalists, etc.

Ms. Wong, could you give us some more information on the top universities that you highlighted—McGill, Waterloo and the University of Toronto—and their relationship with the People's Liberation Army and why that should matter? Ms. Fung, what specific legislation can we make to protect Canadian sovereignty and security as well as Chinese citizens in Canada and human rights and democracy around the world?

[Cherie Wong]

It's been many years since the PLA began to send Chinese scholars to different universities to study. There's been a systematic set-up in these research agreements to export the results back to China. I'll get to the policy recommendations specifically.

I think we need to have a stricter application process for grants in Canada. We need to examine whether these grants and these projects result in intellectual property being exported to foreign countries, not limited to China, but other countries as well. We also need a cohesive federal policy that examines how dual-use technology is being used for commercial reasons and how it is being used in foreign lands.

One of the more urgent things we can do is to refine and update the Global Affairs export list. Currently there is a list of dual-use technology on that export list, but it's not comprehensive enough. Technology moves very quickly in the 21st century and—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

I don't want to run out of time, so I would like to ask Ms. Fung to speak.

[Gloria Fung]

Thank you very much.

Canadians in general, including our government, exemplify lack of understanding and knowledge about how China's “sharp power” operates. Its infiltration, manipulation and control over the direction of all our research institutes as well as university research projects is tremendous.

Over the past few years I have witnessed anonymous donations being given to different universities to control the direction of this development research. Quite often, once the intellectual product has been developed, it's usually shipped out of Canada without sufficient scrutiny—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Perfect—

[Gloria Fung]

—and the core technology for the surveillance program in China actually stems from Canadian universities—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

There's much more that you want to say, so please send us a document with additional specifics, because this is a very important aspect that we aren't collectively aware of. It would really help this committee in our recommendations if you could do that.

[Gloria Fung]

Actually, I suggest that there should be another round of hearings—

[Cherie Wong]

I believe our team has already sent in a brief—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Fung, and thank you, Ms. Alleslev.

We'll now go to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I have a question about issues relating to what Mr. Wong brought up.

Mr. Wong, thank you very much for being a voice for youth.

My question relates to social media. Social media has provided—and not just with respect to Hong Kong, though we are focusing on Hong Kong—a space for democratic activism. To what extent is it fair to say that the national security law completely upends the opportunity for activists, in particular youth activists, to engage in issues around democracy?

[Davin Wong]

As this committee may have been aware, Telegram, an instant-messaging application, has been one of the major channels of communication with Hong Kong young people especially. The police force a few months ago actually confiscated a few channels on Telegram. I would say that even without the national security law, social media are not a safe space for young protesters in Hong Kong. What I think we should be concerned about is how this overreaching jurisdiction provided by the national security law may have further threatened this kind of communication in Hong Kong and outside of Hong Kong as well.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

There's much more that can be said and much more that can be done. I'm glad, though, that the Canadian government has taken steps to issue strong statements, and beyond strong statements has taken actions, such as suspending the extradition treaty with Hong Kong, for example, or on the export of sensitive goods. These are concrete actions that the Canadian government has undertaken. However, as I said, we can always look to see what else can be done, and these hearings are important opportunities for activists and others to tell us their views and their thoughts on possible paths forward.

In the time I have remaining, I will put a last question that's open to whoever wishes to take the question. It is a general one.

We have seen reports emerge for some time now about the human rights abuses that have been perpetrated on the Uighur minority. To what extent is there fear among Hong Kong-focused activists here in Canada, but also within Hong Kong itself, that what is transpiring vis-à-vis the Chinese state and the Uighur minority could unfold in some shape or form in Hong Kong as a way to further suppress democracy in the territory?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I see Ms. Fong indicating a desire to respond to that.

Please go ahead, and unmute.

I'm sorry, I meant Ms. Wong. Excuse me. I'm sorry, she did have her finger up earlier.

Ms. Wong, I'm sorry.

[Cherie Wong]

Thank you for the question.

I think it's been on every Hong Konger's mind to [Technical difficulty—Editor] East Turkestan. If we hear any more, it is evidence that we are seeing Hong Kong slowly adopting the same policies that were used in East Turkestan—also known as Xinjiang—and Tibet, whether it was the collection of DNA information from those who were arrested or the surveillance state. As you mentioned, social media are no longer a safe space, because it's being surveilled, and many have been arrested for their content on social media.

We're seeing the same kind of suppression, and the arrest of Jimmy Lai and the media executives is also an indication of how Hong Kong is being shifted. It's been something that has been on top of Hong Kongers' minds for many, many months.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Ms. Fung, you have 35 seconds.

Was that answer all right, Mr. Fragiskatos?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's quite all right, Mr. Chair. That's great.

[Gloria Fung]

We have a very famous saying: “Today, East Turkestan; tomorrow, Hong Kong.” Unfortunately, now we have to change it to “Today, East Turkestan; today, Hong Kong as well.”

Over the past year, we have seen Hong Kong being turned into a police state, with surveillance cameras everywhere in major streets. At the same time, police in Hong Kong have been using excessive force to crack down on civil society. There have been mass arrests and lots of people have been arrested, but there are also quite a lot of people who have disappeared, and they have been made to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Ms. Fung.

I'm sorry, but we're over Mr. Fragiskatos's time. I hate to cut anybody off, but the committee has set these rules about how much time each member has.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to continue on the subject I touched on a few moments ago. Like Mr. Chiu, I will play the devil's advocate. This time, my question is for Ms. Calverley, given that she did not have the opportunity to answer my first question.

I think there is a willingness in the international community to welcome as many Hong Kong activists as possible so that they can escape repression. From the point of view of the Hong Kong people, can we say that the mass departure of a large number of activists will weaken the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong?

[Aileen Calverley]

It would not, because we are in close contact with many activists and a lot of protesters have actually decided to stay even if there will be offer, like an airlift by other governments.

Of course, a lot of protesters want to seek refuge, so I think international governments need to get ready. For example, the U.K. has already offered for BN—British nationals overseas—to come to the U.K. There are around 3.9 million people eligible, but the majority of young people are not British nationals overseas. That's why we hope Canada can take care of the young people who don't have this privilege to go to the U.K.

It is a very urgent situation, so I think Canada needs to have a policy right away to help those who want to escape.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I think Mr. Wong would like to add some comments, Mr. Chair.

[Davin Wong]

Thank you for the question. I would like to add something.

First of all, as a former student leader and student activist, I can tell you that a lot of protesters in Hong Kong are of different ages, different genders, from all walks of life. I think if Canada has the capacity, we should help young people, of course, but we should not focus only on young people, because a lot of protesters who love Hong Kong are actually from all different ages, genders and ethnicities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Wong.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

Now we'll go to Mr. Harris for two and a half minutes.