Canada-China Relations Committee on Aug. 13th, 2020

[Michael C. Davis]

Yes, you would be turned around. Kenneth Roth was turned around exactly that way.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Okay.

Your belief is that members who are participating in this committee could well be detained if they made it into either mainland China or.... Let's keep it in Hong Kong, where they had freedoms in the past. We could have said just about anything and been able to travel in and out of the country. That is no longer the case. We could well find ourselves on trial, either in Hong Kong or in mainland China.

[Michael C. Davis]

There's a danger of that, but even if you don't go to Hong Kong, which I think might be risky, the sanctions that were targeted against individuals in the U.S. went directly to the congressional committee members.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Right. Thank you.

Mr. Rogers, very quickly, you're located now in the U.K. Has your group ever been located in Hong Kong, and would you travel to Hong Kong?

[Benedict Rogers]

The group has never been located in Hong Kong, but I lived in Hong Kong for the first five years after the handover. I meant to say in my testimony earlier, and I omitted it, that I was denied entry to Hong Kong in October 2017, probably the first of—

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I have 15 seconds to ask you this.

You mentioned that the one country, two systems is caput and that the Sino-British declaration is now null and void. What does this mean for Taiwan?

[Benedict Rogers]

I think Taiwan is absolutely next if the international community does not act robustly. I have no doubt that.... A parallel was mentioned earlier with Poland and the Czech Republic. I think we're seeing Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, Poland. We have to act.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

[Benedict Rogers]

After Taiwan, we will be next if we don't act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Thank you, Mr. Williamson, for keeping a close eye on your time.

We'll now go on to Ms. Yip for five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you all for coming. Your testimony is very important.

My question is directed to Mr. Kwan.

Over the past year, there have been reports of confrontations in Canada between Hong Kong pro-democracy demonstrators and supporters of China's government. What information is available about the nature and frequency of such confrontations? I know you outlined some of it in your opening statement. Also, has there been an increase in confrontations between the two groups since the national security law was introduced?

[Cheuk Kwan]

I just want to say that every single pro-Hong Kong rally that was peaceful was met with counter-demonstrations, organized probably by the Chinese consulates and also a lot of international students, or even Canadian residents, who are what we call “Ferrari-driving students”, who have come up and attempt to perpetuate violence against these pro-Hong Kong rallies. You might have heard that from other groups that have presented before me. This is an ongoing problem.

This is why my testimony today is focused purely on what we can do in Canada. I know that we can talk all we want about what we can do for Hong Kong, but we're going to be met with a stone wall erected by China. As a proactive way for Canada to move forward, I think we have to protect our citizens.

I want to thank you for bringing this question up, because Amnesty International, together with a bunch of our organizations, has issued a harassment report. The Chinese government and Chinese consulates openly harass people like me.

I will point out one last thing. I have been involved in human rights for the last 30 years. I don't think I will be transiting through Hong Kong anytime soon, nor will I even want to go to a country that has an extradition treaty with China. Nor will I fly Cathay Pacific, because the Chinese have threatened that because Cathay Pacific is a Hong Kong airline, registered in Hong Kong, China has a right to abduct me and bring me back to China for trial, or whatever it may be.

I want to point out two famous cases from a couple of years ago, when the Hong Kong Causeway Bay booksellers, a Swedish citizen and a British citizen, were abducted and disappeared from Hong Kong for months, without anyone knowing where they were. This is something that I think is gravely concerning for us as Canadians.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

There are 600,000 Canadians of Hong Kong descent living in Canada. I'm sure they share many of your concerns. What can be done to protect those Canadians with ties to Hong Kong?

[Cheuk Kwan]

I want to defer to Avvy Go on this. I think she's more of an expert in terms of the legality as to what a high commissioner can do in Hong Kong.

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

Sure, but I do want to point out that if we start treating Hong Kong as part of China, I'm very concerned that Canada is going to start imposing visa requirements on Hong Kong citizens leaving Hong Kong, which would make it far more difficult for people who want to leave Hong Kong now. I just want to put that out there. Even if you want to consider Hong Kong as part of China, please don't impose that extra barrier for them to leave.

For now, I think Canadian citizens can still come back to Canada. It's the family members and the extended family members, as well as people who have no ties with Canada, whom I most worry about. In the last few months, I've been getting calls from people who have family members who, because they are Hong Kong citizens and not Canadian citizens—they are parents, grandparents—may not be able to come even after the pandemic travel ban era.

Those are the people who may need some kind of immediate action to allow them to come. Maybe we should think about lifting some of the restrictions during the pandemic travel ban, as well as providing some kind of facilitated passage for activists who have no current ties with Canada. If they want to leave, those people must be able to find a way to leave.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Ms. Go and Ms. Yip.

Ms. Alleslev, you have five minutes, please.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank all the witnesses for this very important testimony. We are learning incredible things.

I want to direct my question to you, Mr. Kwan. You made some recommendations, and one of the recommendations you made was that we need to have a critical assessment of takeovers of Canadian companies, particularly in energy, resources, mining and other critical infrastructure.

I'm wondering if you could give us an idea of why you're making that recommendation, why that situation might be a threat to national security and what we perhaps should be looking for and what we should do about the results of this critical assessment.

[Cheuk Kwan]

I want to give you an example. There was an article by Bloomberg a few weeks ago documenting how Huawei got to where they are today. They stole technology from Nortel through 20 people who had leaked all the technology, whether intentionally or not. They also purchased the rest of the Nortel patents very cheaply off the marketplace. This was because our government at the time, in 2008, refused to fund Nortel, so Nortel basically became a prime target of vulturing by other foreign companies.

Imagine if China had taken over Nortel and built it up again as a strong Canadian company. Its ownership would be in China, and we all know what that would mean: As a Chinese company, it would have to co-operate with Beijing on any spying activities that might occur.

For the second example, from a human rights angle, we have, of course, the famous case of Nexen, in Alberta. It was taken over by a Chinese oil company. The concern there was that they would be importing cheap labour, severely damaging our labour law and dumping prices. In other words, they can be extracting minerals and oil from Canada and selling this off, not at the market price, but at the price they might decide they want to sell it at back to Beijing.

These are economic interests and national security interests.

Finally, I want to mention nursing homes. I know you might be surprised that this is part of our national security, but B.C. nursing homes have been taken over by Anbang, the biggest insurer in China. This has created a lot of problems, from underpaying staff workers to mistreatment of people who are living in the nursing homes. Anbang is also under investigation by China for corruption, so all of that adds up to a failed.... I don't know what's happening with Anbang right now vis-à-vis B.C. nursing homes, but I believe the B.C. government has now taken back control of these nursing homes.

These are just very little things to China, but to us they are vital for our security.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I want you to clarify something. You said that if a Chinese company has ownership of a Canadian company here, on foreign soil, they still have an obligation to the Government of China. Could you expand on that a bit and highlight why that's such a national security interest to Canada and why we must be aware of it?

[Cheuk Kwan]

There are a lot of ways they can do it. Indirectly, they can appoint a board of directors, as China has done with South China Morning Post. Jack Ma, the founder of Alibaba, bought the South China Morning Post and appointed a pro-China board of directors. As a result, they have practically shut down a once august English-language publication in Hong Kong.

They can do that to any Canadian company. It's just a matter of a takeover. It doesn't even have to be Chinese citizens. It could be Canadian citizens who might be pro-China or would be sympathetic to Chinese requirements. These are the national security and economic interests that are in jeopardy.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kwan and Ms. Alleslev.

Mr. Dubourg, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank everyone here for bringing us their testimony.

Let me first turn to you, Ms. Go, since you are established here in Canada. The national security legislation, which has now been passed, is extraterritorial in its reach. This week, and beforehand as well, a number of people have come to testify, as you have, and most of them support the pro-democracy movement.

In your opinion, does Canada properly protect those people? You have told us about cyber attacks and we know that people are facing other situations as well. In your opinion, in terms of the measures put in place by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP, or by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, CSIS, are those measures adequate?

How can we protect freedom, which is so dear to us in Canada, from the influence and the interference of China?

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

I think there are two ways to understand that question. One is influence and interference, which Mr. Kwan talked about, in the political and economic system in Canada.

With respect to protection, I was born in Hong Kong, but I'm a Canadian citizen. I don't have my Hong Kong citizenship anymore. I feel secure, at least for now, but I will never go to Hong Kong. Just as Mr. Kwan has said, I would not go to Thailand or any other country that may have an extradition treaty with China. Even if they don't, they may send some of us back to China [Inaudible--Editor] what they want to have on us.

I'm only secure to the extent that I'm protected by the Canadian system. That protection, I hope, can be extended now to some of the people in Hong Kong who don't have the luxury and the protection that I have. I'm hoping that Canada will facilitate their entry to Canada.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

We have also talked about the Sergei Magnitski Act and about all kinds of measures, but do you believe that Canada should apply a lot more sanctions in the current context?

I have little time left, but I would also like to know what impact the postponement of the legislative elections has on you.

Thank you.