Canada-China Relations Committee on Aug. 17th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Special Committee on Canada-China Relations. Pursuant to the order of reference of July 20, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada-China relations.

Today's meeting is taking place via video conference.

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Now, colleagues, we're on to committee business. We have two notices of motion, as well as a motion. We have two from Mr. Genuis and then one from Mr. Harris.

Mr. Genuis, which would you like to do first?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'll proceed into debate on the Tibet motion, because it's not so much a notice of motion. We've already debated it and debate has been adjourned, so now we're coming back to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Okay. I'll read the motion for the benefit of members and then I'll go to you for debate. I'll keep a list of who else wishes to speak.

The motion was moved by Garnett Genuis during the meeting of Thursday, August 6. Debate was adjourned on this motion and now it's coming back, of course. The motion says:

That this committee call for dialogue between the Tibetan Central Administration and the government of the People's Republic of China with a view to enabling Tibet to exercise genuine autonomy within the framework of the Chinese constitution, and report this motion to the House.

Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be as brief as possible at the outset. We may be able to proceed on this one quickly.

The rationale for proposing this motion was that it was a specific ask from the witness testimony, and by extension, from the community, and that we as a committee taking this position clearly does make a difference and does propel the dialogue forward. We have an opportunity not only to talk about issues of human rights but to take constructive action that many people feel will drive results in terms of the dialogue moving towards that accommodation and that genuine autonomy. I hope we can take this position and contribute constructively to that outcome.

I'll leave it there. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Genuis.

Not seeing any hands up—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

My hand is up, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry, Ms. Alleslev. We'll go over to you and then to Mr. Harris.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

If I could, I would like to introduce a minor amendment to this motion that, after the word “between”, we insert “representatives of the Tibetan people (His Holiness the Dalai Lama or his representatives and/or the Central Tibetan Administration) and the government of the People's Republic of China”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The clerk may need you to repeat that.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'll read it from the beginning. The amended motion would read:

That this committee call for dialogue between representatives of the Tibetan people (His Holiness the Dalai Lama or his representatives and/or the Central Tibetan Administration) and the government of the People's Republic of China with a view to enabling Tibet to exercise genuine autonomy within the framework of the Chinese constitution, and report this motion to the House.

Essentially all we're doing is clarifying that it's not just the Central Tibetan Administration, and that we would want dialogue with representatives of the Tibetan people, which could be His Holiness the Dalai Lama, his representatives or the Central Tibetan Administration. We just wanted to broaden it a bit in terms of who we were saying we would want to have representation and dialogue from with the Government of the People's Republic of China.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Ms. Alleslev, did you indicate where the bracket closes? I presume it's after “his representatives”. Is that correct?

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

No, it would be after “the Central Tibetan Administration”. The brackets are around “His Holiness the Dalai Lama or his representatives and/or the Central Tibetan Administration”, essentially offering permutations and combinations of three elements—His Holiness the Dalai Lama, his representatives or the Central Tibetan Administration—who would be representing the Tibetan people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The wording that I have for Mr. Genuis' motion was “the Tibetan Central Administration”. I presume that's okay. You changed the order but I presume the original order is all right.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I apologize but I don't know the answer to that. I think Central Tibetan Administration or Tibetan Central Administration....

Garnett?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's the Central Tibetan Administration because it's a name.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

The Central Tibetan Administration is correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

That's helpful. Thank you very much.

Before I go to Mr. Harris, I have to ask for debate on the motion to amend the motion.

On that I see Mr. Harris's hand up.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

This was something unexpected. I think we're being overly prescriptive here. The idea was that we were endorsing the notion of re-engagement of the Sino-Tibetan dialogue in general terms. Wouldn't it be better here to not get too detailed and in fact just talk about representatives of the Tibetan people and the government of the People's Republic of China?

I would prefer that, because we're getting a bit specific. We're kind of unprepared for this detail, given the fact that we've had only one witness and the debate we had the other day was partly about this issue and the fact that we're happy to endorse the dialogue between the Tibetan people and the People's Republic. By getting very specific, I think we may be going beyond what we have evidence for. I'm inclined to keep it general and not go into this kind of detail.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Virani and then Mr. Oliphant, go ahead, please.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

We're speaking simply to Ms. Alleslev's suggested amendment and not on the main terms of Mr. Genuis's motion. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Yes.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

On Ms. Alleslev's amendment, happily I'd say that I had noted something very similar to the fact that it would be useful to expand the terms of the original text proposed by Mr. Genuis to include something along the lines of “and/or envoys of His Holiness the Dalai Lama”. “Envoys” is usually used as a term of art but the term “representatives” works just fine.

I do think it's important that we expand it out. I am in agreement with what Ms. Alleslev has suggested in terms of her recommended changes. The reason, for the benefit of Mr. Harris and others, that I think it is important to zoom out a little bit here—pardon the pun, since we're on Zoom—and to broaden it is that historically this dialogue actually occurred with envoys of His Holiness the Dalai Lama between 2002 and 2005. It came to an abrupt end once the Central Tibetan Administration became a known entity with political power. If we restrict it to just dialogue between the CTA and the People's Republic of China, it might be very simple for that overture to be rejected. If we broaden it, that would allow for more options and permutations, which would be beneficial for the overall objective, which is that this dialogue needs to restart.

I would be in favour of having a broader approach, including the language that Ms. Alleslev mentioned.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Virani.

Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll echo that.

To Jack's specific point, I actually think this makes it less specific and makes it a bit broader. It opens up more options and is a little less prescriptive, so it gives a broader range of dialogue partners. It honours the fact that we want that dialogue to happen and we don't want it to be limited by our prescribing which partner it should be.

I am in favour of the amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor.