Canada-China Relations Committee on Aug. 6th, 2020

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, look, if the government members want to filibuster this, it's up to them—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Well, Mr. Genuis—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

—but they've missed the window.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Genuis, you're out of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

They've missed the window, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Genuis, you're out of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You can't just—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Genuis, I would ask you to speak when it's your turn, when you're called upon to speak and when you're recognized.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

As I said, I should have called for debate. I did not do so. That's my error. I regret that.

It's important to allow members to debate on the motion that you've made.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

There were no speakers, but you know, you'd made a ruling—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I did not call for debate.

We have Mr. Oliphant, followed by Mr. Bergeron.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To relieve Mr. Genuis's concern, I'm not going to filibuster. I would propose an amendment to the amendment. It would add Mr. Robert Wright, so that we would be inviting both the ambassadors who declined to appear before our committee. That's what I would do, because I don't understand. The subcommittee requested three ambassadors. One was available and the other two were not.

I believe I would be voting for the amendment that Mr. Genuis made, but I would like a subamendment to add Mr. Wright. Then I would be voting in favour of the subamendment, the amendment and then the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I will now call for debate on the subamendment moved by Mr. Oliphant. This is debate on the subamendment.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I think it's great. I'll vote in favour of that too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

That was the purpose of my comments. I was wondering why Mr. Genuis' amendment didn't mention the two ambassadors. I welcome Mr. Oliphant's subamendment, and I'll vote in favour of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Are we able to call this a friendly amendment, then? Is that what we're talking about?

Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would prefer just to go through the process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Fine.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I think it does change the motion. I think it also gives Mr. Virani a chance to actually vote on a motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

All right, I'll call upon the clerk to proceed to a recorded vote on the subamendment.

(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

(Amendment as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

Thank you very much. I would now like to welcome our first witness, Dr. Lobsang Sangay, president, Central Tibetan Administration.

Dr. Sangay, you have up to 10 minutes to make your opening statement. Thank you very much for appearing.

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay, Sikyong-President, Central Tibetan Administration]

Thank you very much, Honourable Chair Geoff Regan, vice-chairs and members of the committee. Here in Dharamsala it is 1 a.m. Given the importance of the committee, I thought I should deprive myself of sleep and talk about China and Tibet.

[Witness spoke in Tibetan]

[English]

I just said in Tibetan what I said in English.

It's odd now that, because of COVID-19, which originated in Wuhan, instead of meeting in person we have to conduct such hearings online. It's an inconvenience caused to all of us, I think partly due to the Chinese government's irresponsible act of not letting us know that the coronavirus does transfer from human to human. Several thousands were infected, but they did not inform the world. That has led us to this very precarious situation.

I just want to say what I said in 2018, which is similar to what the U.S. government and others have been saying. The challenge posed by the Communist Party of China, or the Chinese government, is very serious. Either we transform China or China will transform us. Liberal values are at stake. Democracy is at stake. Human rights are at stake. Environmental issues are at stake.

Being the second-largest donor to the United Nations, China is trying to restructure the United Nations by putting in key personnel who support them and who compromise democratic values and human rights values. They are trying to redefine human rights. They have already passed two resolutions redefining human rights. If that is to continue, then the human rights we know, where freedom of speech and political rights are considered key, will be diluted. Then all over the world will be what happened in Tibet in the 1950s—elite co-optation of influencing politicians, influencing business people, intellectuals, the media.

All these things are taking place. Having travelled from Ottawa to Norway to Sweden to Australia, I've seen this over and over again. Because of this elite co-optation, the Chinese government is trying to get many people in your own countries favouring or supporting the Chinese version of events. This is what they are trying to do.

We see it in Canada with the issue of Michael and Michael. Obviously, my solidarity is with the family members of Michael and Michael, but it is a choice between morals and money. If the Canadian government submits to the Chinese government's demand to exchange Ms. Meng Wanzhou for Michael and Michael, that will lead to other cases where more Canadians could be arrested and used as hostages to put pressure on the Canadian government to give them concessions. I think the Canadian government has taken the right stand—not to succumb to the pressure from this Chinese government.

On the issue of Taiwan being a member of the WHO, I have been in favour of Taiwan's status being restored to pre-2016, when they were a member of the WHO. The coronavirus is simply a health issue, and Taiwan has performed brilliantly in dealing with the coronavirus. Their expertise and their experience could be invaluable in handling this coronavirus. Their role should be provided for and accommodated at the WHO, but because of Chinese government pressure they are not allowed in.

Then there's the security laws in Hong Kong. This is what we saw in Tibet with the unity laws in Tibet. Similar security laws were passed in Tibet, and these laws are simply to undermine democratic values, undermine freedom of speech and allow political oppression of the Tibetan people, environmental destruction of the Tibetan Plateau and the economic marginalization of the Tibetan people. All this is taking place primarily because the Chinese government has imposed, like Hong Kong, security laws, unity laws. These are used to undermine the freedom of the Tibetan people.

Hence, what we have been saying is that what happened to Tibet could happen to you. From Taiwan to Hong Kong, to East Turkestan, with a million or so people detained, including a Canadian citizen, a Uighur Canadian, Huseyin Celil, who has been detained in China, all this clearly shows that what happened in Tibet 60 years ago is happening all over the world. There are a lot of lessons you can learn from Tibet.

With this, I want to recommend that the Canadian government, especially the committee, pass a motion and support a middle-way approach as a policy which seeks genuine autonomy for the Tibetan people within the framework of the Chinese constitution. For that to happen, there ought to be a dialogue between the envoys of the Dalai Lama and the representatives of the Chinese government. This is, in fact, a win-win proposition for the Chinese government and the Tibetan people. I hope the committee will consider supporting a middle-way approach.

Religious freedom is vital. This year marks the 30th birthday of Panchen Lama and the 25th anniversary of his disappearance. We don't know where he is. He has disappeared for 25 years, and Panchen Lama's case reflects the tragedy of the situation for religious leaders and religious freedom in Tibet. The Chinese government is trying to interfere in the selection of reincarnated Lamas. The reincarnation is strictly a spiritual business that the Communist Party of China is politicizing. They are saying they will interfere and they will select the reincarnated Lama, and the Tibetan people should follow those religious leaders. This is in clear violation of basic human rights and basic spiritual traditions.

Also, I would urge the Canadian government to join alliances of democracies or like-minded countries that support and uphold liberal values, to be together, so open coordination with other countries to press on the Chinese government that they ought to be a responsible member of the international community, and international norms and regulations ought to be followed. If they don't do it, they will not get the respect they want as an upcoming superpower.

The Chinese government ought to respect human rights and liberal values of the Tibetan people and Uighurs, Hong Kong, and the people in Taiwan as well. These are the issues, which are very important.

Finally, Tibet is very important from the environmental point of view. Ten major rivers of Asia flow from Tibet. Tibet is called the “water tower of Asia”. More than a billion people depend on water flowing from Tibet. Climate change is all over the world, including whether the winter will be cold or warm in Ottawa, or the summer will be too hot or not. It's partly dependent on jet streams from the Tibetan Plateau, so that's also a very important matter. The Chinese government does talk about providing leadership in climate change, but their actions and their record in Tibet are abysmal, a very poor record, so the Chinese government should be held accountable as far as the environmental destruction of the Tibetan Plateau is concerned.

These points were also raised by a Tibetan-Canadian called Sangyal Kyab, who walked all the way from Toronto to Ottawa and visited Parliament, asking parliamentarians to support dialogue between the Chinese government and the envoys of the Dalai Lama to find a peaceful solution to the Tibet issue, and the whereabouts of Panchen Lama, and religious freedom.

I would like to end here, because my time is up, and thank the committee members for inviting me. Even though it is past midnight, past 1 a.m. here, I am here to represent the Tibetan people and to emphasize how important the Tibet issue is. With that, I want to thank the chair, the clerk and all the members of the committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Dr. Sangay, and thank you for sticking to your time allotment. I know that members are looking forward to asking you questions. Of course, you will have opportunities to speak, and they will be looking forward to hearing from you.

The first speaker in the six-minute round is Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Dr. Sangay, for being here and for staying up so late. Dharamsala is certainly a beautiful place to be.

I want to start by expressing my support for everything you said in your opening remarks. I appreciate your challenge to this committee to put forward a motion or initiative expressing our clear support for the middle-way approach, facilitated through direct dialogue, and also standing up for religious freedom inside Tibet.

It is amazing that we have an official atheist regime that also claims to control and know reincarnation. It would be comical if it weren't so tragic. I want to express my support for you on those points. I'm hopeful that this committee will be able to adopt motions to that effect, adding our voice to yours and to the voices of so many Tibetan Canadians, who I know raise these issues on a regular basis.

You framed some of this discussion of Tibet as Tibet being kind of the first victim of CCP colonialism. I think it's such an important point for us to think about, that with so many of the techniques of colonialism, of elite capture and of control that the CCP is trying to deploy around the world, Tibet was the first case where we saw that happen.

I wonder if you can just speak a bit more about Chinese state colonialism and also the implications that you're seeing for the Tibetan diaspora community, for instance with issues of Chinese state influence in Nepal and the implications for Tibetans in Nepal, and the intimidation and pressure that Tibetans face even in Canada, the United States and other western countries. What are the manifestations of that for the diaspora?