Canada-China Relations Committee on March 11th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 19 of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada-China relations.

This is a hybrid meeting, in accordance with the motion adopted by the House on 25 January 2021.

Before we get to our witnesses, I'd like to inform committee members that 30 minutes have been set aside at the end of today's meeting to discuss committee business, including the subcommittee report, which essentially contains the draft work plan regarding the national security dimensions of the Canada-China relationship.

Since we're going to have bells at eight o'clock, I'll see if there is unanimous consent to keep going until 8:15 to have some discussion on that subcommittee report.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses.

We have Rob Stewart, deputy minister of Public Safety Canada; Brenda Lucki, Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; John Ossowski, president of the Canada Border Services Agency; David Vigneault, director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service; Shelly Bruce, chief of the Communications Security Establishment; and Scott Jones, head of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security.

I thank you all for being here tonight.

I've been advised that there will not be any opening remarks as tonight's discussion is a continuation of our last meeting with the minister.

We will start the first round of questions.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I would first like to ask Mr. Vigneault some questions.

Mr. Vigneault, in your speech on February 9, you said that the current legislation allows the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS, to provide advice to government, but that it limits its ability to provide useful advice to key partners. I've had discussions with university presidents who told me there is no real interaction.

Is this one of the problems with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act?

Is there anything that prevents you from addressing presidents directly, for example?

[David Vigneault, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Paul-Hus.

I will mention a few important points here. First of all, we work very closely with universities in different ways. We work with the presidents, but also with the people who are responsible for research and development.

We also work with organizations such as U15, a consortium of Canada's leading research and development universities, to provide them with advice and guidance.

The issue that is raised relates to section 19 of the act. This provision ensures that we cannot disclose classified information outside of government.

We give universities information and guidance, but there is a limit to how much advice we can give them.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You say you give information to the government, but is the government allowed to pass on the information, or must it keep it under wraps and leave people in the dark?

[David Vigneault]

At that point, Mr. Paul-Hus, secret information is not disclosed. However, we can suggest avenues of reflection and mention areas of risk to be mitigated, particularly with regard to hiring, cybersecurity measures, and measures to be taken with regard to contracts.

We therefore maintain a close dialogue. However, we have been asking for several years to be able to engage in much more intense dialogue.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you very much.

You also mentioned earlier that the activities of companies in almost all sectors had been compromised and that these companies had suffered losses due to cyber attacks. We can think of companies in the fields of health, pharmacology and artificial intelligence, among others.

Does the Chinese People's Liberation Army play a role in sophisticated operations?

[David Vigneault]

As you can imagine, there are certain details I cannot give you here. But I can tell you that the government and various agencies, including CSIS, are working to protect the country from these threats. Some states, including China, which was mentioned in the past, are using every tool at their disposal to come after Canada's secrets and those that relate to our modern economy.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I will ask the question differently.

Does China have sophisticated capabilities that exceed the defence tools of Canada or other Western countries?

[David Vigneault]

Several states have very sophisticated tools, both technical and human, for espionage and interference. We mentioned that China was one of these countries. There are several others, unfortunately, that have the ability, the interest and, sometimes, the opportunity to conduct espionage in Canada.

The measures we take must be one hundred per cent effective. We must always block everything. It is a constant battle, a constant struggle. We are playing a kind of cat and mouse game. We are trying to find the next place where information will be stolen. This is what we are doing with our partners in the Canadian government and the Five Eyes countries.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Vigneault.

Ms. Lucki, some Canadians are being attacked, threatened or harassed on the Internet.

What are the Royal Canadian Mounted Police's IT infrastructure and capabilities for investigating these online crimes?

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Any time there is any type of threat to people through intimidation, we ask them to report that to the police of jurisdiction. Obviously, if they're in immediate threat, we would ask that they call 911, if it's grievous. Otherwise, like I had mentioned in the previous meeting, we have a 1-800 number that we work through.

We also do some monitoring on social media to ensure that when there are such things as threats against people on the social media platforms we follow up with those, and we work with that.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

How many officers do you have in Canada dedicated to online crime?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

In national security in total, we have 600 resources, and that covers the entire gamut of the types of investigations we do. Of course, each and every one of those investigations touches on the cyber portion of the investigations, but they aren't specific to cybercrime specifically.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Vigneault, did you brief the minister on the Uyghur genocide?

[David Vigneault]

Unfortunately, I cannot disclose the content of my discussions with the minister, but we are well aware of the situation.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Now we go to Mr. Fragiskatos for six minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, officials, for your work, and for being here tonight. It is deeply appreciated.

My question is for the CBSA.

Tell us about the work that is being done to prevent fentanyl from coming into Canada from China.

[John Ossowski, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Obviously, we work with all of our partners here in terms of looking for leads to help us target shipments that might be coming into the country. Working with the Chinese government, the RCMP had reached out a couple of years ago looking to list certain precursor chemicals.

Unfortunately, folks are fairly creative and they're looking for new ways to create this stuff all the time. My lab, which actually examines the stuff that we seize, at one point a few years ago was finding a new analog every two weeks. It's something that is, as my colleague just said, a cat and mouse game, and we're always looking for things.

We've done things with investments in terms of designated examination facilities at the ports of entry so we can get very quick analysis of something, but we continue to look for precursor chemicals. Obviously, we've had some success. In fact, in 2020, we seized 5.8 kilograms of fentanyl, which is about 2.9 million fatal doses. The seizures go up and down all the time, but with the rise of e-commerce, we're paying particular attention to that particular route.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Mr. Ossowski, do you have figures to compare what has been seized since the government put in place stronger measures a few years back, I believe under Minister Goodale at that time, and what the situation was before those reforms?

[John Ossowski]

I'd have to go back. I can certainly provide a written report on that, if you're referring to when the legislation came in for under 30 grams to open mail, and pill presses—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Exactly, yes.

[John Ossowski]

I can go back and provide that report.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It would be great if you tabled that with the committee.

I believe this next question is probably best placed with the CBSA, although others might want to put their point of view forward as well.

How can Canadians be assured that goods and other products that are being produced in the Xinjiang region of China are not entering Canada? Obviously, there are deep concerns about the ongoing genocide. There are concerns about forced labour. Obviously the government has acted and Minister Blair spoke to this last week. I just want more information and perhaps you could enlighten the committee on that.

[John Ossowski]

Certainly.

As I recall mentioning at a previous committee appearance, we started with this as a result of the Canada-U.S.-Mexico trade agreement last summer. The first thing we needed to do was work with our colleagues in ESDC, Employment and Social Development Canada, to put the legal framework in place to allow the sharing of information properly.

I really underline the importance of having those good processes in place to make sure that we have defensible decisions at the end of the day. We've been working with that legal framework.

One complaint has been received. Unfortunately, it didn't have any evidence associated with it.

We're building that capacity right now. We're working with the other partner departments on this one to do exactly as you say.