Canada-China Relations Committee on Oct. 26th, 2020

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I, too, would like to begin by thanking Ms. Gui and Mr. Law for their extremely enlightening comments on the work of this committee. I commend them for having the courage to agree to be with us despite the legitimate fears they may have as a result of what happened to them and their loved ones. I thank them very much and congratulate them.

One of the concerns we've had from the beginning has been that some witnesses might be afraid to come before this committee. This leads us to reflect on the modus operandi of the People's Republic of China outside its borders.

Ms. Gui and a number of her colleagues were abducted either in Hong Kong, in contravention of Hong Kong's autonomy in matters of security, or elsewhere in the world. In the case of Ms. Gui, it was in Thailand.

There are three questions that arise here.

First, does the People's Republic of China have a number of agents abroad? I imagine this is a question that will be of great interest to our colleague Mr. Paul-Hus, who wants us to quickly address the issue of security and the People's Republic of China's influence on Canadian territory. Does the People's Republic of China have agents abroad to intimidate or even make arrests?

Second, does this require the complicity of the states on whose territory the abductions take place? I am thinking of Thailand, for example. Is there any indication that Thailand may have been complicit in the abduction of Ms. Gui on its territory?

Third, countries are powerless to enforce consular provisions when their own nationals are incarcerated by China. This was very apparent in the case of a Canadian citizen with dual citizenship, and was discussed at length in this committee. The People's Republic of China does not recognize the Canadian citizenship of this national. In the case of Ms. Gui, China does not recognize Swedish citizenship. I think there are a number of leads as to what states need to do to try not to become isolated in facing China.

Returning to China's modus operandi for acting abroad, what would you have to say to enlighten us in our work, Ms. Gui and Mr. Law?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Ms. Gui, please proceed.

[Angela Gui]

Thank you.

I think those are all excellent questions and points. I can start by addressing the point about my father's abduction from Thailand in 2015. Yes, I personally believe, although it hasn't been conclusively shown, that Thai authorities were complicit in the abduction of my father. For example, he left his passport behind when he was kidnapped and had to have it renewed during the period in which he was in house arrest in 2017. To my knowledge, the only thing Thai authorities said about this incident was that they had no record of him ever leaving Thailand. Thai authorities have not seemed willing to assist in any investigation of what happened to my father, which is something that concerns me greatly.

On the other point, about Canadian dual nationals potentially being subject to the same treatment as my father, I will also just emphasize that my father is in fact solely a Swedish national. He does not have Chinese citizenship. He went through the process of renouncing it actively, which is quite a long and arduous process. This didn't seem to matter. I think it may have quite harrowing implications for Canadian citizens as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Law, you have one minute.

[Nathan Law]

Thank you.

Yes, definitely; I think it's especially for activists like me. I have been engaging in political activism for around six years, and I've been avoiding going to places where their relationship with China is quite friendly. Thailand is one of the places. For me, it's clear that among these authoritarian regimes there's a high possibility of collusion of or co-operation with each other. Activist like us have to be very careful.

Yes, indeed, there's a reason why in this hearing and other hearings there are no activists from Hong Kong who are based in Hong Kong, still physically in Hong Kong, who are willing to participate. The reason is that it would draw many repercussions for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

We now have Mr. Harris for six minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of the witnesses for coming forward today. I want to congratulate and commend you both for the courage you've shown in the face of a very strong situation, where the government is very powerful and exercises that power in strong ways—against your father in particular, Ms. Gui, and against you personally, Mr. Law.

Mr. Law, you left, of course, the day before the national security law was imposed. You are now living in the U.K. We heard from time to time that the U.K. was expected to impose what are often referred to as the Magnitsky sanctions. I think after a long debate one way and the other, they finally adopted this similar type of legislation that other countries have, although not very many, of course.

What's the expectation of what the U.K. might do in the foreseeable future?

[Nathan Law]

Yes, indeed under the Magnitsky act, we are all hoping that these sanctions do apply to the Chinese officials. For now it isn't the case. We're trying to put forward that enactment in order to really hold these Chinese officials accountable. I believe a similar sanctions mechanism will possibly be in place by the EU in the future. I hope it will also apply to Chinese officials with regard to the Uighur concentration camps and other human rights violations happening in China.

In terms of what's upcoming in the future, the U.K. government has been sorting out the BN(O) scheme, which allows millions of Hong Kong people to come to the U.K. and get citizenship in the long term. This is seen as a really beneficial scheme for the Hong Kong people. For me, I'm actively interacting with the government to expand that to the young people who are most in need. There are other mechanisms, such as high scrutiny of Chinese enterprises in the U.K. and other policies that really curb the influence of the Chinese Communist Party overseas. I think these are directions in which the U.K government has been moving, and I hope the other European countries can also shift in that direction.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Perhaps I should be more specific, because obviously you expressed the hope that this would happen. The U.K. has had a policy change. They're dealing with people who were already passport holders in the U.K. and are therefore already able to come to the U.K. under existing passports. They made some policy changes, which, I would venture to suggest, are fairly easy to do.

You are expressing the hope that they impose sanctions. They've had plenty of time to do that. I'm just wondering if you have any realistic expectation that the U.K. government will actually do that, because I haven't heard anything of late indicating that they are doing more than what they've announced already.

Now, they have made some suggestions that they would make it easier for students who come to the U.K. to study to stay longer, which is again a policy change that is very positive.

I'm interested in this question of sanctions, because there are only seven or eight countries that have this type of legislation, and maybe more will come. I'm looking to what mechanisms might be used when you talk about.... We talk in Canada about an alliance of countries who are seeking to make it difficult for the authorities who violate human rights and who act in the ways we're talking about that we would like to influence.

What mechanisms are available in addition to the Magnitsky-type sanctions, which we haven't yet seen from other countries other than the U.S.?

[Nathan Law]

Thank you once again for your question.

I think the foreign minister has also talked about it, and they have considered it, and they have not said that it is impossible. For me, a continual dialogue with them is crucial, and I hope this could be done in the future for the second or third round of the Magnitsky act sanctions.

For me it is important that we work together, not only on the sanction mechanism.... For example, if all the liberal democracies decide to act in this way, when we have a trade agreement with China, then it is impossible for China to have leeway to try to mingle and to do business with one and not the other to circumvent this kind of united effort by all of the liberal democracies.

The problem is that you don't have a concrete mechanism, just as Ms. Gui said. The leaders could sit together and work out a plan to hold China accountable. For me the problem is not what policies we could follow, but the intention and the mechanism that all these countries could work together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Law and Mr. Harris.

Now we are on to the second round.

Mr. Chong, you have five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Gui, thank you for taking the time to tell your heartbreaking story about Hong Kong. It sent chills up my spine.

My late father was a Hong Konger who went to high school there, grew up there and was born there. He began his studies at university in mainland southern China, and it was just over 70 years ago, as the communists began their march south in 1948, that he fled on one of the last trains back to Hong Kong.

Like your father, he never held Chinese citizenship but rather a British Hong Kong passport. He told us when we were kids that he'd never go back to mainland China for fear of being abducted, so your story sent chills up my spine, and I thank you for telling that.

Good afternoon, Mr. Law. Thank you for taking the time to appear. It's good to see you again, and I'm glad to see you're safe and well.

My first question is for Ms. Gui. Has the Swedish government done anything with respect to Thai authorities arresting your father, and have they done anything with respect to the People's Republic of China?

[Angela Gui]

Thank you, also, for sharing your family's story.

This ties into the second question, I think, that I was asked as well, about potentially making concessions. My experience has been that Sweden has been hesitant in its response to China's violations of my father's human rights, but also in general. As we have seen, that has not been effective.

With regard to communications with Thailand, I do not have full insight into the bilateral communications, of course. I am aware that there were questions asked, but I think they weren't asked in public, which I had hoped they would be.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Okay.

Has the European Union made any public statement about China's violation of the Vienna convention with respect to your father?

[Angela Gui]

There was a European Parliament resolution—there have been two, I believe. I don't think they mentioned the violation of the Vienna convention specifically. I may be wrong, but to the best of my recollection, I don't think so.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Were these resolutions with respect to your father?

[Angela Gui]

Yes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Law, you were elected to the Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. What impact has the absence of pro-democracy candidates had on the functioning of LegCo and on Hong Kongers' view of LegCo?

[Nathan Law]

After a series of disqualifications of the Cantonese running for the council and parliamentarians over the past number of years, I believe that the Hong Kong people already view the legislative council as merely a puppet council of the Chinese government because the Hong Kong people cannot enjoy the right of electing their representation fairly.

For me, yes indeed, its legitimacy is largely challenged and Hong Kong people believe less and less in the change in the system, and that is why protests broke out so massively last year because they stopped believing in participating in the system that had made a concrete change.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

I remember sitting around the cabinet table in 2006 when we had to evacuate thousands of Canadians from the conflict in Lebanon. I ask this question in the context of the 300,000 Canadians living in Hong Kong. In your estimation, at what point do we see a tipping point where there could be a mass exodus of Hong Kongers seeking to leave the special administrative region?

[Nathan Law]

I think for now at least it isn't likely to happen in the foreseeable future because Beijing still does not target massive numbers of people. But other than an exit plan, concrete help for those individuals in Hong Kong, Canadian Hong Kongers, is crucial so we should develop plans in that direction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Mr. Dubourg, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I plan to share my time with my colleague Ms. Yip.

First, let me thank Ms. Gui and Mr. Law for being here. Like my colleagues, I really want to tell them that their courage is exceptional.

Ms. Guy, I would especially like to understand the influence of the Chinese government beyond its borders. I don't want to cause security problems for you, but can you tell us what measures you have taken, personally, to protect yourself? Also, what can the Canadian government do to assist you in this process?

[Angela Gui]

Thank you.

This is something I have worried about daily for entire five years I have been doing this. Like Mr. Law, I don't travel to many places that I wish I could travel to but where China has influence. I have been subjected to many intimidation attempts here in the U.K., where I am based, but also in Sweden and Germany and other places. Mostly this has been in the form of intrusive [Technical difficulty-Editor] photography, but it's also happened through an attempted break-in. Early last year I was involved in an influence operation, in which I suspect Chinese agents were involved. The Swedish ambassador to Beijing at the time invited me to a meeting in Stockholm with two Chinese businessmen. I was in a hotel lounge for 72 hours and was made to feel that I couldn't leave and that I had to be quiet about my father's case or I would never get to see him again. That was what they said.

Of course, it's very hard in these circumstances to know how you can protect yourself. It's never a straightforward thing, unfortunately. I have to make sure I minimize the information I give out when I communicate. Even using encrypted apps I don't tell people about my whereabouts. I worry about communicating with friends who may have Huawei phones or routers. That's maybe the most concrete and short-term recommendation that I can make to that end. Other than studying and following Chinese influence and intimidation in Canada, I would also recommend that Canada try to limit the expansion of Chinese technology to help protect people in my situation.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you so much, Ms. Gui. I know the time is flying, but I have just one minute.

Mr. Law, I know that you are one of the six people they are trying to arrest. I wonder how you are personally experiencing this situation in the United Kingdom.